Lore talk:Akavir

Not in Tamriel

AKAVIR ISN'T IN TAMRIEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! — Unsigned comment by 217.23.225.122 (talk) at 09:51 on 4 June 2007

No, but seeing as we know so little about it, it seems silly for it to have its on namespace, as it would contain only this page. What about renaming the tamriel namespace Nirn, although it would take a hell of a lot of work. I reckon just leave it. Its to small a problem to justify the effort in my view. -Lordsword 8 11:09, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

Actually, there's been some informal discussion about whether to rename "Tamriel" to "Lore". If we're going to rename it, "Nirn" wouldn't really even work since there's an article on Masser, for example. As you say, any renaming would be a pretty huge effort, although NepheleBot makes it much more feasible. At some point, it's an idea that might get proposed. --Nephele^Talk 11:31, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

There are rumors going around that TES5 will be based in Akavir if that is the case it would by all means be its own namespace but as for now nothing really needs to be done.I just wanted to spread the rumor because it was somewhat relevant.--Most Honored Listener 19:18, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

I think the best course of action would just to be to wait until we know for sure what TES5 is all about. If it is in fact in Akavir, then we would have a good justification to change the name. But for now, we might as well just leave it. --JB 17:28, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

Major Edit

A few things I would like to ask:

• When editing I wanted to add the content window, but couldn't find any tips on how to
• How do you add links for books?
• Is this to much lore? I thought it might be a bit much , but decided to just go with it

Saun - Dowh 21:49, 14 August 2007

Thought about Akavir

Is it possible that the Akaviri are actually men? Much like the Imperials except based on the Japanese? Since men and mer can wear the Akaviri gear without looking too wrong or different other than looking like samurai, it can't be a far off idea. I saw an ghost Akavir in the pale pass. He looks like an imperial. Maybe it is because imperials are the closest possible race to Akaviri. Why else would their influence expand so much to affect Tamriel Emperor's own bodyguards if they weren't human-like? As seen in the Mysterious Akavir, it is an inaccurate documentation of the races available in Akavir. We cannot assume that Akavir is really a dreadful place. Since no other book i've seen references these other "races", i'm thinking they're non-existent. I dunno, you guys might have read something i haven't. If you have, and you share? -Postcardsaremine 03:14, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

Possibly some. As it says, there were once men in Tamriel. But Mysterious Akavir isn't the only book to make mention of them as snakelike- the 2920 series does so as well, as do several historical accounts. As for the Ghost General, his appearance was more than likely due to engine limitations- it wouldn't make sense to go through all the trouble of cooking up an Akaviri model for just one guy, not to mention he's dead.

The Men who lived in Akavir were all eaten. I do not recall when this occurred, however, the current population of Akavir consists of several groups of half humanoids. The Tsaesci are the Snake-men, which I imagine as mermaid-like creatures (snake bodies, but thats the picture in my head). The upper half of these creatures would allow them to use swords and regular man-armor. The Blades perhaps were formed or conceived during the 400 year rule of the Potentate from Akavir. Their fortress, armor, and weapons are influenced by the Akaviri no doubt, perhaps of the era when men still survived there.

If an ES game goes there, I imagine there would be few surviving groups of men, perhaps hiding in ruins or mountains, but the primary people would not be full bipedal creatures.

See this study 86.141.83.59 18:31, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

So I would say there are some men left in Akavir but they are now part of the Tsaesci culture, also the above edit was mine but i wasn't signed in :) Ben X X2 18:38, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

My thoughts on the subject is that humans in Akavir became subjugated by the Tsaesci, not literally eaten. Yes, in the courier's diary it mentions a leg wound, and snakes do not have legs, this is true. The Akaviri skeletons look humanoid, but this could be due to time constraints/laziness from bethesda not wishing to make new models. Same goes with Commander Mishaxi (the ghost commander of pale Pass). However, looking at the armor, it fits a humanoid, no snake-like body fit, and the courier's diary, to me at least, show evidence that humans do still live in Akavir. Dave— Unsigned comment by 97.124.110.242 (talk) on 10 February 2010

Mishaxi was wearing Blades armor, speaking Cyrodilic and had Imperial facial features. The only conclusion that fits all evidence is that the Akaviri fielded Tamrielic armies loyal to them. The enormous influence their charismatic culture had on Cyrodiil subsequently explains how they attracted men to their cause. This doesn't mean that Akaviri men do or did not exist somewhere at the time.Temple-Zero 05:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

A serious (Perhaps dumb) question

Being that Tamriel is in many references considered its own entity with no mention of other "continents", and seeing as how Mankar Camoran labels Tamriel as a plane of Oblivion all its own, is it then fair to conclude that Akavir is part of a different plane, yet somehow occupying the same planet as Tamriel? How exactly would this make sense then, seeing as how the Empire battled the Akaviri in earlier ages while the Dragon Fires were lit? Does this throw out the idea that Tamriel is its own plane, and perhaps suggest that many historical books providing stories of the world's creation were written before knowledge of this continent? Perhaps Akavir is a chunk of tamriel that broke off (continental drift?) I'd like some thoughts on this, maybe I'm missing something. 209.134.75.234 20:07, 25 May 2008 (EDT)Darth Shrute

Okay, Tamriel and Akavir are NOT separate planes. They are both continents occupying their planet, Nirn. Continental drift is possible too. You must also understand, on the other hand, that Tamriel also contains other continents, including Thras, Pyandonea, Yokuda, and maybe even Aldmeris. Of course, It is impossible to tell, unless Bethesda says it themselves.-Puddle 20:19, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

While what you say makes sense, I think theres something left unclear about the nature of Nirn and the universe. The descriptions of the mythic age sound like fairy tales and Im not sure if we are supposed to take the creation story literally from "A Children's Anuad". Mankar Camoran clearly states that "Dawn's Beauty" (aka Tamriel) is the realm of change, the birthright of Mehrunes Dagon, the creation of Lorkhan. If we are to believe that, then this leaves the "Dragon Land" (aka Akavir) as a completely different entity. They were never the same. Considering that every man-species has emigrated to Tamriel and changed it and fought, it makes sense this is the realm of change. A realm for mortals. Akavir isolates itself from the influence of outsiders, so much so that it eats or enslaves those that do not belong. The weather itself tries to destroy anyone who would come to Akaviri shores. Its inhabitants are immortals (for the most part).

This "continent" is the opposite of change, and while Tamriel is continually contested ground (as per its nature) Akavir remains mysterious, secure, and mostly undisturbed. I really hope the game creators figure out a way to shed more light on this in a definitive way. Perhaps others are already satisfied with a simple interpretation. — Unsigned comment by 209.134.75.234 (talk)

Couldn't all this be explained by the Nirn creation story? If Akavir and Tamriel came from different worlds before forming Nirn, then being identified as different planes isn't too far-fetched...

Akaviri isn't an opposite- it is actually a lot like Nirn. They have a similar collection of races with mutually antagonistic histories and clashing viewpoints on the nature of the universe. Tosh Raka turned himself into Dragon and attacked the Tsaesci, who see the world in a similar light as the elves of Nirn. Some have suggested that Akavir is a literal sister continent of Nirn, a myth echo.71.244.115.20 22:21, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Mankar may have been saying: "Tamriel is a realm of Oblvion" In a metaphorical sense. Remember,he is refrencing as his master's birthright at all times. The thing is though, that you can reach Akavir by ship. Is it a whole other world, or a skip across the pond? — Unsigned comment by 76.118.200.220 (talk) on 16 December 2009

Specification

Shouldn't we add an 'IN OBLIVION' to that little note about the Nerevarine?--Juz(not logged in)

Japan

Does anyone else think that it's worth mentioning how similar akavir weaponry and architecture is heavily based off of feudal Japan?

No, it is not worth it. The parallel is too obvious to be worth mentioning, and on the off chance that a reader has not noticed the similarity, informing them would not contribute to their understanding if the subject in any valuable way.Temple-Zero 20:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Credibility

Considering that a lot of this article is taken from Mysterious Akavir, described by the article about that book as "inaccurate," should such a notification or disclaimer be placed on this page? Mannius Mello 06:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Races

Does anyone else notice the paralels between some of the Tamerelic and Akviri races? Obviously the Ka'Po'Tun could be Khajiit, and if you take into account some information from the Tsaesci artical (about the inconsitacies of describing their chairicteristics) the Tsaesci could be a species of Argonian. The Tang Mo seem to be reminisent of the Impa and the Kama could just be Daedra (or Ice elementals ie: Frost Atranochs)

No, it's not possible for the Tsaesci to be a race of argonians because Tsaesci look like humans accept for the golden scales and the huge snake body instead of legs.

Morphology of the Golden snake fellas.

Isnt it possible that there are sevral forms of them, same as Khajjit have diffrent Body types? Just a thought, but it kinda makes sense. 184.77.194.254 05:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid there's no information about them beyond what's already on the page. rpeh •T•C•E• 07:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Akaviri Flag

Where did the flag come from? And how do we know it's Akaviri? Sorry if I've missed something, but it looks a lot like the symbol on the reverse of a septim — Unsigned comment by 91.105.85.135 (talk) on 22 December 2010

It first (?) appeared in Morrowind, inside Imperial forts. All the page says is that it's inspired by akavir - the dragon motif is pretty clear. Personally, I'm not sure it should really go here though. rpeh •T•C•E• 14:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

It's now the logo for TESV: Skyrim. Hmm...--24.34.193.137 01:54, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I've deleted the banner because it's just causing confusion. rpeh •T•C•E• 02:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

From the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodill section : Second Empire subsection:

"They have left a visible mark on the Empire of today. The high crafts of daikatanas and dragonscale armor came from Akavir, as did the banners and military dress of Septim's shock troops, the Blades. The Red Dragons that have come to represent the Empire and the Imperial City were originally Akaviri war mounts. "

This is a book that shipped with Redguard. It's never been supplanted by newer lore. I'd consider the Red Dragon Banner origin in Akavir canon and a welcome addition to this article, now that the source has been clearly defined. (Pilaf The Defiler) 64.253.223.247 22:28 11/24/2012

The flag that has been (re)added is that of the Imperial Legion, not the Blades. Not sure why the two of them are being counted as one and the same. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 09:20, 10 April 2013 (GMT)

The note says that it is an "Akaviri inspire flag". It doesn't make the assumption that it is the blades or solely akaviri. Jeancey (talk) 19:49, 10 April 2013 (GMT)

Geografi

Why is there no info on Akavirs geografi?If there isn't any information about the Geografi of Akavir anywhere in any of the games I'm sorry for asking... and also to me it seams likely that the snakes ate all the humans... after all they are descriped as snake vampires...

Yeah, there's not really any info about the geography... The only info we really have (which really isn't anything) is described in the inhabitants section. --GK^talk2me 18:38, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean the geography of the Akavir continent? We have never had a map, or even a reliable recollection of lands that inhabit the continent.

As for your comment that the Tsaesci ate all of the men and mer of the continent once again we have little evidence to show they meant eaten as in literally consumed. The men and mer were more likely to have been enslaved, as detailed in this note from the article. Though you should take it this interpretation with a grain of salt since pretty much everything we know about the Akaviri only comes through accounts that are arguably unreliable, and crazy either if they are true. --Alpha Kenny Buddy 18:44, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

"The meaning of term "eaten" as given from what is known of the land of Akavir is not clear. Although description of the Tsaesci might suggest literal meaning, it could be a metaphor for being subdued. In Mysterious Akavir by anonymous writer, the Tsaesci are told to have: "tried to eat all the Dragons. They managed to enslave the Red Dragons, but the black ones had fled to (then) Po Tun." Also, the Akaviri Diary Translation of an Akaviri messenger states that during his journey to deliver orders to Pale Pass Fort he met another Akaviri messenger, stating that his leg had been badly hurt by wolves. As the Tsaesci are described as beings with humanoid upper body and snake lower bodies, to being entirely snake-like, this statement would suggest that men indeed continued to live in Akavir, even if they were subdued as independent by the Tsaesci."

Akaviri (written) language.

Has anyone successfully translated any part of the Akaviri language? I have tried, and I believe the top right parts of the Messengers Diary mean "Day 2" and "Day 3". If that is truly the case, than you can only use the second page (Day 3) as reference for translation. Note: Akaviri is probably based upon Chinese languages, and should not be approached the same way as western languages.118.82.150.60 04:59, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Akaviri is definitely not based off Chinese. It bears no resemblance to Chinese. (I can read Chinese.) It looks like random scribbling, with the many 3,4,5s. I'll admit though, I can spot a few characters that can pass off as Chinese characters.(Very badly!) I highly doubt the Akaviri language is real. Ongoingwhy 18:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

To clarify, by "real" I meant an actual language that one can use to communicate with others. Ongoingwhy 18:45, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I dont think he meant literally chinese, but that he meant that each symbol means a word, or a part of a word, rather than a sound. Much like Daedric or Dwemeris arent any western languages. Anyway, can we atleast have a page which shows all the symbols with atleast numbers next to them (Much like is done with the Elder Alphabet (The symbols from the Elder Scrolls(actual scrolls))? Kamica (talk) 08:50, 15 February 2013 (GMT)

Wouldn't it be possible to compare the Akaviri writing from this journal to that in certain documents from Skyrim? If there are any characters in common between the varying sources, it's possible Bethesda actually made a language for them. After all, they put a lot of effort into the Elven languages despite them barely appearing or being involved in quests. --Pilaf The Defiler (talk) 00:01, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

So what are they?

I was reading one of the 2920 books, i think it was the first one, and it mentions the akaviri champion. His description is like that of a slightly yellow scaly thing, so i tried making an argonian based on this, and it looked awesome, is it possible that argonians are similar to the akaviri, but live in different conditions? Any ideas? Emzi43 18:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, they could be similar. You can find different snakes, birds, lizards, etc all around the world, so I don't see why they couldn't be similar. But I am positive they aren't Akaviri themselves. His Immortal Majesty, Eric Snowmane 20:12, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

The Tsaesci are more similar to snakes than lizards. They aren't Argonians. --Legoless 20:16, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

That seems to make sense, its just all the similarities, wonder if the Tsaesci can breathe underwater?

Emzi43 18:38, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Tsaesci can't breathe underwater, Vivec flooded Vvardenfell, when Akaviri forces tried to invade Morrowind. He had apparently put the entire population of the island under a spell, so they could breathe underwater. The flood destroyed the Akaviri invaders, which would not be possible, if they were able to live/breathe under water. Maybe their water-breathing ability would make sense, if Tsaesci have actualy had enslaved the humans(or some other non-aquatic race) and used them as the main invasion force... [thc_54j0] — Unsigned comment by 89.142.82.253 (talk) on 22 January 2012

The tsaeci can't be argonians. if you read the 2920 books it mentions them having coils, like a snake instead of legs.— Unsigned comment by 212.139.87.139 (talk) at 23:47 on 2 April 2013

The Children's Anuad specifically names them as a breed of Men. Also, the skeletal remains at Pale Pass and the human figures on Alduin's Wall suggest they're bipedal sentient beings who were able to wear armor and use weapons. Other sources like Disaster at Ionith and the First Pocket Guide talk about them as if they're simply another race of Men. We have to always balance these against sources listing them as Beastpeople when they're discussed. There's far more evidence for human Akaviri invaders than monstrous snakes. The bones certainly are humanoid. --Pilaf The Defiler (talk) 00:04, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

Akavir is a continent. There are many races that call Akavir home. They are all Akaviri. We have very good evidence that the Akaviri Potenates were Tsaesci, a race of snake-men. We also have good evidence that the figures on Alduin's Wall and at Pale Pass were Men of Akavir. We also have very good evidence that the invading army in the 2nd era was led by a Kamal, a race described as "Snow Demons". Calling them Akaviri is like saying that Nords are Tamrielic. They are. But they are also Nords. Imperials are also Tamrielic. So are Argonians. All of these races are Akaviri. Jeancey (talk) 01:12, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

Mysterious Akaviri

Surely none of you took this book seriously. It sounds like the writer was high on opium when he wrote it. It was filled with garbage, and no mention of them being unusual, or "monkey folk" was mentioned in Report: Disaster at Ionith. — Unsigned comment by 67.142.173.24 (talk) at 01:23 on December 19, 2011

Mushrooms, actually. Opium is not a hallucinogenic. And the information in Mysterious Akavir is likely inaccurate in some or all respects, but until it is contradicted, it's as good as fact for our purposes here. Minor Edits 02:12, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion for an edit

In the third paragraph of the history section:

In 1E 2703, the forces of Akavir invaded Tamriel and were decisively defeated at Pale Pass by the army of Reman I. Reman's empire was also under threat from the Elves, and he agreed to allow the survivors of the disaster to remain in Tamriel and strengthen his army.

It may be relevant to add the 'why' behind the Akaviri invasion. During Skyrim's main quest, while Esbern is describing the features of Alduin's Wall, he goes on to note the significance of the third panel.

Esbern: Look, here. In the third panel. The Prophecy which brought the Akaviri to Tamriel in the first place, in search of the Dragonborn. Here are the Akaviri - the Blades - you see their distinctive longswords. Now they kneel, their ancient mission fulfilled, as the last Dragonborn contends with Alduin at the end of time.

not straightforward

In the note ar somewere else it should be mentioned that the akaviri are according to esbern not a straightforward people. So the term eaten would not be used lirerally by the akaviri themselves. — Unsigned comment by 82.73.72.148 (talk) at 19:46 on 1 August 2012

Uh,I don't understand.What is your question?--Skyrimplayer 19:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the note already given is fine.--Br3admax 20:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

This is how it basically works

Nirn is the planet, which has several Oblivion realms. Mundus is the one that all the games are set in. Within Mundus you have continents (like on earth) Which are Tamriel, Akavir,Atmora, Pyandonea, Aldmeris (which is lost), Yokuda (which was destroyed), and Thras. Akavir is not a seperate plane of oblivion or the empire would not have needed to/been able to attempt an invasion. there you are, it's been fully explained to you. — Unsigned comment by 212.139.87.139 (talk) at 11:00 on 2 April 2013 (GMT)‎

You can find the continents listed at the Tamriel page. — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 11:20, 2 April 2013 (GMT)

And what the anon wrote isn't right anyway, except for the second half.

Oblivion realms appear to be either pocket dimensions, or parts of a single other dimension/plane, and are not on Nirn, the Earth-like planet, nor in Mundus (the earthly plane). It seems probable though not entirely conclusive in the lore materials that Oblivion is really one plane (Oblivion's generally referred to in a singular sense), with various places in it under the control of individual Daedra and sometimes other entities (e.g. Mankar Camoran). What's unclear is whether they're all on a planet or something like a planet, or more widely separated, or just created out of chaos/void by will and magic (i.e., with just nothingness between them), or what.

Mundus is the earthly plane, and includes all of Nirn, and the two moons. The anon is correct that the continents named in the lore are/were all on Nirn and are/were not Oblivion realms.
— Darklocq ^☎ ¢ 21:25, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Albanian?

The Akaviri names used in the Lifting the Vale quest (Mishaxhi, Xhaferi, Sylaj) seem to be derived from Albanian names. Should a note of this be made? FokkerTISM (talk) 05:40, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

It has very little to do with lore. Might be worth bringing up on Oblivion talk:Easter Eggs instead. —Legoless (talk) 08:45, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

If even there. The naming schemes in this game are a mishmash. At best, we might want a page about the naming and its shifts, to the extent these can be reliably identified. E.g. most Dunmer names seem to be loosely inspired by a combination of Brythonic and Romance languages (especially Welsh and one of the Italian dialects, or maybe Romanian minus the Slavic influence, to my eyes), but then they veer sharply and inexplicably in a Persian and Arabic direction in the Ashlands (with very little middle ground), while the various caves and Daedric ruins on Vvardenfell are of the latter sort. The naming patterns even shift markedly between games, which you can detect clearly if you look at by-race name lists from the various games. Even within one game, the Tolkien-derived High Elven names are sometimes plopped onto Woodelves and others, and not all of the High Elves have them. In any of the games, you can find the Latin-derived Imperial names sometimes used by others, including various elves. It's just really inconsistent.

In at least one sense, it's rather realistic, as linguistic and nomenclatural aftermath of imperialism and cultural blending. If you go to real-world France you'll find some people with German names and vice versa; and Greek names from ancient times (e.g. Alexander) still show up in the Near East, Middle East, and India in modified form (Iskander, Eskandar, Xandru, Skender, Sikandari, etc.) today.

Without interviewing particular developers, we'll likely never know what inspired particular names or why. Given that real Asia has multiple entire language families, and that Eastern Europe was colonized numerous times over millennia by Asian groups, often linguistically unrelated, just take it as intentional albeit scattershot game design that Akavir is (or at least was) diverse, and included languages and naming systems inspired by some of what we presently call Eastern Europe and the Near East, instead of it being all CJK-derived. (Even if most of the weaponry, armor, and architecture labeled Akaviri in the games seems predominantly inspired by fuedal Japan.)

It's really more mysterious why the placenames of the Khajiit and Argonians make very little sense within the milieu; my best guess is that most of them are Imperial and Nordic exonyms, and that locals don't use names like Anequina, Corinthe, Gideon, Archon, and Helstrom, while the more English-parseable ones like Blackrose, Murkwood, Soulrest, Dune, and Riverhold are just direct translations of the native names' meaning. (And of course the real, out-of-universe answer is that some of these names go back to the first game, before lore and cultures for the series were really developed very much. For example, in Arena, all the Argonians had Latin- and Greek-derived names.)
— Darklocq ^☎ ¢ 22:38, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

This type of discussion is better suited to the forums. —Legoless (talk) 22:40, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Binary

The top of the Messenger's Diary uses binary. T00011 can be translated to mean "Day 3", as 11 is binary for 3. The next day that is translated for you, day seven, is annotated on the next page as T000111, with 111 being binary for seven. Should this be included, as one of the few interesting things discovered about them? --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 03:09, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Influences in Morrowind

We should probably also observe that the Orcish armor favored in Morrowind (the place) and in Morrowind (the game) also shows strong Akaviri influence, and Akiviri weapon styles are more common in that province than in Cyrodiil (where also the Orcish armor shows much less of an Akaviri influence). — Darklocq ^☎ ¢ 21:15, 30 May 2018 (UTC)