Lore talk:Spider Daedra

Article Name

While I appreciate the attention given to Battlespire, I have to question the decision to move Lore:Spider Daedra to Lore:Perthan. "Spider Daedra" is more widely used, and the only notion we have that Perthan might be their own name for their people is a few Spider Daedra having "Perthan" in front of their names in Battlespire. But having a word in front of their name doesn't necessarily make it the race's name; we haven't moved Lore:Flame Atronach to Lore:Magdra, or Lore:Frost Atronach to Lore:Nomeg. -MolagBallet (talk) 13:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Perthan is a term used for ALL Spider Daedra on conversations for both common and unique Spider Daedra. for common ones, the word Perthan and then their Rank is used link. For unique ones, the word Perthan and then their actual names is used link.

It wouldn't be the first time a daedra's species is used on the front of a daedra's name in Battlespire. Take Xivalai Moath, who was clearly the blueprint for the Xivilai species of Daedra.Zebendal (talk) 14:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Perthan could be just a title or position, the Atheneum is another source referenced and it even marks it as "Perthan Vorn (Spider Daedra)" or "Spider Daedra Perthan Vorn". The same book also mentions Spider Daedra more often as a general creature name alongside Frost Daedra, Herne, etc. So it could be nothing, it might be something, but I do not believe it is worth using Perthan for the possibility, although I do not mind if stronger proof appears.WriterS (talk) 14:27, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with WriterS on being open to stronger evidence, but from what they just provided ("Perthan Vorn (Spider Daedra)", "Spider Daedra Perthan Vorn"), it's looking more like we shouldn't be assuming that Perthan is the race's proper name. I think the fact that "Xivilai" has been carried over into other games, while "Perthan" has not is kind of telling in this case. -MolagBallet (talk) 15:05, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm highly against moving away from Perthan. The generic spider daedra using it is a tell that its a species name, not a prefix like "Magdra" and "Nomeg" are, which are only used for unique atronachs. I know that they're more commonly called "Spider Daedra" but that's just because its a common Tamrielic name, same as Argonian showing up more than native Saxhleel. I moved it to Perthan because there's precedent with Lore:Aureal and Lore:Mazken; more commonly known as Golden Saints and Dark Seducers. There's not a single mention of those terms in ESO, and any appearances in Skyrim are from carryovers, basically limiting it to showing up only in Shivering Isles (the same way Perthan only shows up in Battlespire) but we still prioritize these terms anyways because its their true Daedric name. Just because the recent games don't use them doesn't mean they've been deemed retconned, Vermai barely appears in ESO and Morphoid Daedra don't appear at all, but they still exist in the mythos. To unprioritize the use of Perthan is a big step in the wrong direction and one that I cannot see as a good move. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:41, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I would support moving it back, as it isn't clearcut, like Golden Saints and Dark Seducers. We really don't know for sure that Perthan is the name of the race. And making this assumption is Original research. They are called Spider Daedra in much of the modern games, which should indicate that Perthan isn't a 100% clearcut name for them. I also think making such a drastic change without discussion wasn't appropriate, and now that opposition has been voiced to the name change, we should move it back and open a full discussion on the name (i.e. revert to the status quo until consensus is reached) Jeancey (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we have enough evidence to definitively claim that Perthan is their name for themselves. "Saxhleel" is explained to us in many bits of dialogue (and a book; "Saxhleel: Argonian. Or, more specifically, the Argonian's word for Argonian"), and the terms Mazken/Aureal have been explained at least once, too ("The Mazken guard Crucible in New Sheoth. We ensure the Demented remain orderly and respectful of our Lord Sheogorath"; "Sheogorath rules the Shivering Isles. We, the Aureal, are His favored soldiers, the most perfect expression of His might."). Perthan never gets that explanation. Sure, there's a precedent with Mazken and Aureal, but those also have in-game evidence saying "this is what these Daedra call themselves". We can try to assume that the Spider Daedra call themselves Perthan, but we're never told outright, and imposing the term on the face of the article just because we feel it's what they call themselves based on anecdotal evidence doesn't feel right.

I'd advocate for a note saying that some Spider Daedra have "Perthan" in their name. Mazken and Aureal got an in-game blurb because it was important enough to the world building for the devs, but Perthan is never addressed in the same way. -MolagBallet (talk) 00:56, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

While I'm still here, I'll address an instance where we don't refer to Daedra by what they call their own race: the Xivkyn. The Xivkyn can't seem to decide what they want to call themselves (Stolavryk, Khimrykif, Vyrsago), so we just call them "Xivkyn", and we inform readers about the three known names they have for themselves. I'd love for the Xivkyn name thing to be explored a bit more, but that's neither here nor there, and going off the deep end on that would make this conversation veer into off topic territory. If one of those names were more widely used, we'd absolutely make it more prominent. But even the Xivkyn have a blurb saying "this is what they call themselves, but we ignore it because they can't decide on a name"; no Spider Daedra in Battlespire ever says "we are the Perthan". Not that they specifically need to say it, but something more substantial has to point in that direction in order for us to run with it. -MolagBallet (talk) 01:03, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

(←) Is Perthan not a clan name, rather than a species name? It stands to reason that all Spider Daedra would be part of the Spider Daedra clan, but unless there's something in the Athenaeum I don't think there's any source to confirm it as the species name. I think it is a clan prefix, like Nomeg. I've no issue with it being mentioned/bolded in the opening line but it's not appropriate as an article title. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:50, 11 August 2021 (UTC)