Lore talk:Tsaesci (race)/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Lore talk:Tsaesci (race) discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Inaccurate?

What, exactly, suggests that the descriptions of Tcaesi are inaccurate?

The only book that relates to Akaviri races, Mysterious Akavir holds a very Tamriel-centric viewpoint, and contains other misconceptions of 'foreigners' to Tamriel, going so far as to claim the redguards sank their own continent to come to Tamriel. The book Report: Disaster at Ionith mentions nothing at all of snake people (Ionith was in Tsaesci territory) and seems to indicate that they were but men that fought against the empire. Furthermore, why would the imperial people accept the rule of an obviously nonhuman race such as the tsaesci. I call BS on this snake people thing.208.79.244.67 18:10, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

That's a general vagueness more than evidence on inaccuracy. Say instead 'no verification' blah, blah. But Carolac Townway, who embellished nothing, described them as serpentine. This is a conflict, and should be described as such. On to anecdotal evidence. The Imperials are the most accepting race in Tamriel, as their strength comes from cosmopolitanism. They embraced the Akaviri wholly, just as they ordered their entire First Empire around Marukh, an ape(!). Perhaps the most compelling argument is that it would be strange if the Tcaesi were human when their culture is obsessed with snakes. Read their creation myth. Every solitary image and metaphor is serpentine in nature, and it is obvious that their intelligence is alien. Their bodies would be too.Temple-Zero 18:37, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

There is one study that claims that there were both Tsaesci and their assimilated ("eaten") humanoids. If this indeed true, it would explain tsome of the discrepancies in the descriptions of the Akaviri. From the introduction: The anatomy of the Akaviri has become a major issue among Tamrielic scholars recently. Evidence seems to contradict itself. Some scholars propose that, with the amount of evidence available, the Tsaesci must be very snake-like in appearance, while others think that their serpentine traits refer mainly to their face or posture, and some even suggest that they might be serpentine in a metaphorical way. and the conclusion

Men And Tsaesci

This leads us to one very important conclusion: if the Tsaesci "ate" the dragons by subduing them, they must have done something similar to the supposed humans of Akavir. I believe that the Tsaesci and the humans of Akavir are two different races that inhabit or inhabited the same area. The Tsaesci tried to enslave the humans of Akavir or to conquer their territory and rule their lands. The serpentine Akaviri are therefore not the same people as the humans seen at Pale Pass, though both can indeed be classified as "Akaviri".

Tsaesci as serpent-like creatures and and their men, read the rest at the link. Thus there is perhaps a base to expand Lore:Akaviri with origin, invasions, life in the empire and the potentates.--Benould^•T•C 19:44, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

And then there is the immeasurable more interesting explanation by Adventurous Putty that 'eating' means to break down an entire race until it is dissolved into a base set of memes and concepts, which are then absorbed by the Vampire Snakes and the essence of the victim is stolen.24.31.156.165 19:57, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

I don't know how reliable or noteworthy this is, but in the game I read the book called "A Childrens Anuad", a shorter retelling of the creation of the world as I understand it. At the end of this book, it is said the men are descendants of the Wandering Ehlnofey, or more precisely: "On the other continents, the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Men: the Nords of Atmora, the Redguards of Yokuda, and the Tsaesci of Akavir." The only reference to Akavir and the Tsaesci is that very passage. It may not be such a trustworthy source, considering it's a religious text, but I still think it should be taken int oconsideration. (Link: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:A_Children%27s_Anuad ) Nederbörd 81.227.118.234 18:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I always invision them simlar to Reptile from MK4, though from what the description from 2920 suggests, it makes me simply think human top half, then giant serpent tail for the bottom, ie mermaid but a snake not a fish. Kiutu

Article Rewrite

I'm submitting this article by Sload as a replacement for the current one. Some changes still need to be made, plus whatever else is agreed on.

Tsaesci

Tsaesci, which means "Snake Palace" is the name for a region of Akavir as well as the race which lives in that region. Before the coming of Tosh Raka, the Tiger-Dragon of the Ka Po' Tun, they were the most powerful polity of Akavir. They are described as tall, beautiful, and covered in golden scales. They are universally described as being serpentine in nature, though their exact anatomy is not always agreed upon. They are immortal.

History

The Tsaesci invaded Tamriel once in 1E 2703, but they were driven back by Reman Cyrodiil, the first emperor of the Second Empire, who defeated them at Pale Pass. Some Tsaesci remained in Tamriel, including the Potentate Versidue-Shaie, who took control of the Empire after the death of Reman III. Their influences on |Nibenese culture is very prominent: Imperial weaponry, from their dai-katanas to the Dragonscale armor, shows influences from Akavir, and as late as the beginning of the Third Era, Tsaesci ancestry was a thing of pride among the Nibenese elite.

In Akavir, the Tsaesci have historically been very powerful. They killed and ate the Akaviri race of men, and then attempted to do the same to the Akaviri dragons. They managed to enslave the "Red Dragons," but the "Black Dragons" fled to the land of the Ka Po' Tun. This began a war which devestated both nations and left the dragons of Akavir extinct.

Tsaesci Culture

The culture of the Tsaesci, and of Akavir is obscure, as few texts involving them have been presented and their homeland has never appeared in a game. Oblivion suggested that the Tsaesci imagery is somewhat reminiscent of the images associated with East Asia, and though Michael Kirkbride did not intend this in Mysterious Akavir, he has expressed his support for the idea.

With the publishing of the Tsaesci Creation Myth in December 2006, one would expect that the Tsaesci perspective would become more clear, however, the myth made them even more confusing and mysterious. Interpretation of the myth is still uncertain, due to its denseness. It is clear their perspective is somewhat Aldmeri in nature, in that they consider themselves gods, rather than created by gods, though some parts are difficult to make clear, being hidden behind poetic language and bizarre jargon. It is rather unlike any other creation myth yet presented.

Adventurous Putty has proposed an interpretation of their culture which has gained some traction among members of the lore community. In this view, the myth expands the definition of "eating," meaning literally and mythically consuming the subject in its entirity, absorbing its whole identity into themselves. "It wasn't just a matter of "cultural assimilation" -- they were consumed. Entirely. They were eaten, mythically, their very identities stolen, broken down, and melted" into the Tsaesci. This interpretation is popular but not canonically endorsed.

"Immortal. Vampire. Snakemen."

In Oblivion, a character representing the ghost of a Tseasci made an appearance in Pale Pass. His physical appearance, however, did not match that of a Tsaesci at all, and his race in the CS was listed as "Imperial." It was speculated that they might not have literally "eaten" the men of Akivir, but rather consumed their culture, or else that they were not actually snake-like at all. The former proposal was supported by one developer, but Michael Kirkbride, the inventor of the Tsaesci, has repeatedly stated that the appearance of this character is due to technical limitations, and that they are literally, in his words, "Immortal. Vampire. Snakemen."

References

Temple-Zero 15:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Apologies to Sload, but I'm afraid to say I don't like this article, and I'm a bit surprised you like it, T-Z. It jumps in and out of the real world (what is this concept you call "December 2006"? :) ) but its main problem is that it relies on forum posts and personal opinion. I can reluctantly accept OOG material but when it comes to proposals from "Adventurous Putty" on a forum being cited as a primary source, then I'm drawing a line. Even if that was from a dev, it's not the kind of OOG material I think most people will want to include - the debate seemed to indicate a desire for semi-published material rather than posts. There's also a substantial amount of "MK Fanclub" in this article, especially in the last paragraph.

In short, whilst there's some good information in this post, there's far too much bad material, in my opinion, to use it as an article.

I re-jigged the headers on the post purely to make it clear which parts of the page were in your proposal - they will need changing back if this does end up on the page. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 16:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

I'm aware of those issues and posted it (Sload requested) to see if the two of you could find a way to amend it. In which case I think we're waiting on him. If it's a no-go, I'll scavenge some of the material and add it to the current article.Temple-Zero 16:09, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Argonian relation

While it has not been suggested anywhere, perhaps it should be added that the Tsaesci could possibly be related to Argonians, as this could have happened, and their description is not definitive, so it is entirely possible that they and Argonians looked similar. — Unsigned comment by 124.169.90.91 (talk) on 20 March 2009

Unless there's any evidence of a link, such a suggestion would be pure speculation and therefore not the sort of thing we want to include. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 05:23, 20 March 2009 (EDT)

The only people the Tsaesci appear to be related to are the mer, and thats in terms of spiritual beliefs, and a bit out of the scope of the wiki.74.65.142.202 16:32, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Grommok

Should Grommoks jounal be added to references? Because it says how dusk/dawnblade is Tsaesci.--Arch-Mage Matt 05:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Example: "Blade looks like a mouth with teeth, handle like golden snakeskin and the gem in the middle of it... a perfect fiery orange and red, like the sky at dawn. Syndelius was going crazy and I asked him what was all the noise for. He told me it was Akaveery or something like that and made by the Snake People or the Sayessie or whatever. Syndelius says Sayessie starts with a T just now when he saw me writing this, but that doesn't make any sense. T-s-a-e-s-c-i. Fine, there, I wrote it. By the Nine, Syndelius is nosy sometimes." (It also explains how to pronounce it)--Arch-Mage Matt 22:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

fan fiction

Latest edits regarding Tcaesci rules appears to be fan fiction, unless something I wasn't aware of just leaked.Temple-Zero 21:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Lets try this again

Okay, I am going to make this very clear. This isnt any personal speculation. This is a comment based on an idea put forth by mysterious akavir that has for some reason been completely ignored by the community, or completely unnoticed. I think this fact needs to be included in this article in some capacity. Please do not remove this because you disagree with the idea, as you can see there are things on this talk page that are far more speculative and not removed (look above to see people saying they are related to argonians because "they said so" I at least have a reason here)

The serpent-folk ate all the Men of Akavir a long time ago, but still kind of look like them.

See this statement here, from Mysterious Akavir.. The wording seems a little bit awkward, but according to this statement, the serpent men look like the men of akavir, and the specific reason they resemble the men of akavir is because of their consumption of the men. It also seems to indicate that they looked more like men in the past, as they only kind of look like them. I assume that this means the consumption of hte men led to the tsaesci looking like the men. Please draw your own conclusions from this statement, but please include the information from this statement in some capacity as it has been completely ignored by the community to my knowledge! 24.192.217.83 13:37, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Image of Tsaesci in Skyrim

I believe this image is supposed to be Tiber Septim/Talos killing a Tsaesci — Unsigned comment by 76.105.239.216 (talk) at 11:04 on 11 February 2012‎

Tsaesci have never been confirmed

I'm pretty tired at seeing all these unconfirmed claims. If any of you bothered to read history from your real planet, called Earth, you'd all understand Tsaesci much, much better.

First of all, the entire continent of Akavir is heavily based on Asia. By Tsaesci having the red dragon constantly, as well as being called a Dragon Land, is a big reference to China. The martial arts are a clear reference to all Asian forms of martial arts, and the katana itself is obviously Japanese, with Chinese and Koreans having their own swords with similar hilts and blades. If anyone had bothered to read about Morrowind, the main themes were Japanese and Egyptian. This was stated by the makers themselves. You can find that by using the magical search engine and looking up articles with statements from Bethesda.

Being Asian myself, and knowing a good deal about various Asian cultures, there are many symbols I find about Tsaesci. Asians use lots of symbols in their history, therefore I know that being so literal about serpent people is reading far too into those symbols. Since Argonians are a race all on their own, I would rule out the Tsaesci being lizard like. Each continent has their own variations, pretty much all have at least one human race.

There are lots of theories, but so far none of us can say there's hard core fact. The best place to look is The Annotated Anuad. However, don't read too hard into stuff like them being called serpent people. It could mean anything from them owning dragon scale armor, to having mounted red dragons, to anything else. There are other theories, from them being snake people to being vampiric. Maybe the idea of them "eating" their victims means that there were cannibals, like Markarth. The bottom line is: we don't know!

Instead of speculating on this article, we should keep in mind that it's all just lore. We can't say yes or no on any topic. We can simply say, "The theories are..." and leave it at that, until Bethesda gives us more facts.

Vashtari 09:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I would say that the descriptions of them being serpentfolk are fair enough. There are few sources on this, but Mysterious Akavir is consistent with that description if not with the vampiric one. Elsewhere, we have a description of a Tsaesci slithering across grass, and further confirmation that Akiviran races are mostly or all beast races ("He knew that “beastfolk” referred to the natives of Tamriel, not to the Tsaesci of Akavir like himself."). They are also definitely golden, as said in Mysterious Akavir and 2920, Evening Star. There is a description of a snake man here. In all our sources about Tsaesci, they are described as golden snake men.

I imagine they appear much like naga or yuan-ti. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 20:58, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The use of "slither" in your second link could still be metaphorical, though. Even in our world, it's not uncommon to hear certain types of speech described as "hissing" (not to mention other kinds of animal sounds, like "snarl," "roar," "bellow," etc). It doesn't mean that the speaker is literally an animal. 144.132.103.189 23:32, 2 November 2012 (GMT)

Compare with the other sources:

• Mysterious Akavir: "These Men, however, were eaten long ago by the vampiric Serpent Folk of Tsaesci." "The serpent-folk [...]" "When natives of Tamriel think of the Akaviri they think of the Serpent-Folk, because one ruled the Cyrodilic Empire for four hundred years in the previous era. He was Potentate Versidue-Shaie, assassinated by the Morag Tong."
• 2920, Evening Star (v12): "The Potentate Versidue-Shaie and his son Savirien-Chorak slithered into the room, both bedecked in the headdress and jewelry of the Tsaesci. There was no smile on their golden face, but there seldom was one." "The Emperor spat up blood and somehow said the word: 'Snake.' 'I am a snake, your Imperial Majesty, inside and out. '
• 2920, MidYear (v6): "[...] replied the snake man." "Savirien-Chorak slithered [...]"

With multiple sources never implying that they are simply human, and being described as snakes by many, I strongly doubt that they are not human.

Of course, since the 2920 series is fiction and Mysterious Akavir could be incorrect, it could very well be that Tsaesci are not beastfolk. However, as these are our only sources, and they all agree with each other, and we have no conflicting evidence, we must assume that the Tsaesci are serpent-folk, as stated. Vely^►t►e 15:53, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Vashtari, that was one of the most aggressively presumptuous contributions to a talk page I've ever read, enough so to spur me into adding my two cents. It's important to remember that many cultures contained within the TES universe are generally based pretty loosely off their "source cultures," or are combinations of multiple cultures. The symbols and metaphors employed by the lore aren't necessarily going to reflect their real-world equivalents, and thus have no bearing on the lore or the interpretation thereof. I could easily claim that the Tsaesci did not literally eat the men of Akavir because an archaic Chinese way of referring to conquest by assimilation was to say that one nation "ate" the other, but there's no way of confirming it. You can read all the history and cite all the symbolism you like, but if there's no lore to back it, or if lore contradicts it, it's a moot point.

As Velyanthe has pointed out, all lore points to the Tsaesci being snakelike, most known contradictions have been primarily due to technical limitations. It's absolutely insane to think that the devs were going to take the extra time to model Tsaesci skeletons and ghosts for a single quest. In addition to the modeling, they would have had to handle the rigging, texturing, animation, and AI for the ghost to name a few steps in the process; as well as modeling the armor around that new race-- that's no small feat, especially when you're on a deadline. Saying that the established lore available to us is as good as theory ("...we should keep in mind that it's all just lore. We can't say yes or no on any topic...") essentially invalidates a huge amount of other lore regarding other races like ayleids or the dwemer, for example. The argument that our present information is only speculative when there is enough information to form a solid argument toward a certain point-- in this case, that the Tsaesci are serpentine-- is absurd. In sum, there is no reason to argue against lore on the basis of real-world mythology. 75.70.177.180 03:47, 31 March 2014 (GMT)

(←) Please refrain from necro-posting. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 03:52, 31 March 2014 (GMT)

This topic is now closed.

Moved from article - needs consensus

"==Culture==

There are no shields in Tsaesci's culture. During the battle Tsaesci rely mostly on their swords"

I would like some consensus on this entry. I don't think this statement belongs on the Lore page for the following reasons:

1. If it were part of a paragraph describing their martial traditions, it would be noteworthy. Taken by itself, it is merely trivia.
2. I checked nearly every other Lore article for the races. Armor and weaponry was not mentioned within the "Culture" section of any of them.

Any input is appreciated. --Xyzzy 14:52, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

With what little we know of the race, I do not think it to not be noteworthy. It could probably be included in the opening paragraph somewhere. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 18:43, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed with Velyanthe, if some Nord say that every Nord is always glad to fight with smb that just worthless words, but Versidue-Shaie is one of the few well-known Akaviri and his words about Akaviri's culture is really useful--Tashy 16:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess my main objection was having this statement placed where it was, all by itself under a new header. I wouldn't have any objections to it being incorporated into the opening paragraph. --Xyzzy 16:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

"Entirely snake-like"

I've been looking through a few books and cannot find any that call a Tsaesci entirely snake-like as opposed to half-snake, half-man; one can slither while being only half-snake. Can someone provide a source please? Vely^{►Talk►Email} 18:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Could they actually have been Men?

Couldn't this article be rounded out by including more sources? "Disaster at Ionith" seems to promote the idea the Tsaesci used cavalry, which usually requires legs. The Anuad described Tsaesci as a race of Men. Also, newer lore from Oblivion and Skyrim seems to depict them as humanoid, and the First PGE mentions they married into Cyrodill families and had children. This would be difficult for an alien beast race with no shared blood lineage to the Wandering Ehlnofey. — Unsigned comment by 64.253.223.247 (talk) at 14:13 on 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree, there are plenty of references to humanoid Tsaesci. —Legoless (talk) 10:21, 8 September 2012 (EDT)

It could be added to the article, but there are too many sources describing Tsaesci as snake-men to just accept it completely. I would also like to mention that there's no direct references to Tsaesci being completely humanoid. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 10:33, 8 September 2012 (EDT)

There's nothing concrete about them being humanoid, true, but it definitely deserves a mention. The humanoid skeletons found in Pale Pass and the points outlined above by the anon should be more than enough source material to justify adding it as a possibility. After all, Mysterious Akavir and the works of Carlovac Townway are hardly infallible sources. —Legoless (talk) 10:46, 8 September 2012 (EDT)

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