Oblivion talk:City-Swimmer

Have anybody actually seen her swim?

And if yes, on what days and what time? Krusty 10:18, 1 March 2009 (EST)

I don't recall ever seeing her swim, nor do I see anything in the Construction Set that would suggest that she does. I'll add it to the bugs section, and if I'm wrong, it can always be removed. --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 16:08, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

Playing around with it, I was able to create a mod to make her swim, though the AI could probably use a little tweaking. This is a stab in the dark, but in creating the mod, I discovered a hard-to-find broken path node just at the top of the stairs to the dock. I suspect that perhaps originally, they tried to make her swim and when she wouldn't, they abandoned it due to time constraints but the dialogue got left in. --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 03:43, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

I'm on the PS3 version of the game (No mods); I'm staring at her swim below the bridge leading to Bravil Castle. --Coxis 05:11, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

What day is it? And time? Krusty 05:13, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

I'd be curious to know that as well. What may have happened is that "something" caused her to get bumped close to the docks or into the water. Due to a broken path node at the top of the dock stairs, she would then be unable to get out. I've seen similar things happen with people somehow (and don't ask me how!) getting bumped behind locked doors or otherwise in a different path grid and then they couldn't get out. Best Goods and Guarantees in Leyawiin is great for this! :) --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 13:38, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Loredas, 7:50 PM. Luckily I saved on a different file to go back and check. I can take a picture if you guys want (From a camera though, I don't have a video capture card).--Coxis 15:43, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

I just checked her on Loredas, and she didn't swim for me. In fact, she was nowhere near the water at any time of the day. If you still have that save-game, could you check to see, if she's able to get out of the water at all? Her schedule says, that she returns home at 8pm, so you shouldn't have to do too much waiting. If she cant get out of the water, then I think RobinHood70 is correct... Krusty 06:17, 4 April 2009 (EDT)

I will check tomorrow. Question: If she is indeed trapped in the water, will she stay there forever or will she respawn somewhere when some time has passed? 'cause I continued to play from that same game save and when I came back to Bravil she was walking around town, not trapped in the water.--Coxis 00:48, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

If she's trapped there, you might have to push her back on to the main city grid. The same sort of "something" that pushed her into the water in the first place might cause her to get pushed back, plus I've occasionally seen randomly teleporting NPCs when they're stuck, but she may well stay there indefinitely, I'm not really sure. If she DOES seem to be stuck there, wait until close to 8:00 pm (or any time she tries to leave the water and goes to the top of the dock stairs), then just walk into her and "push" her a little further. I can't be sure, but I suspect at some point, she'll get pushed back into the main city grid and be able to find her way to her next scheduled location. It's too bad you're not on the PC, cuz this'd be a simple Console command if you were. :) --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 01:50, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Alright, I checked and she wouldn't even attempt to get ouf of the water... She would just stay there, moving around the same area; I waited around until 2:00 AM so you guys were probably right. As for not having the game for the PC... I do regret it, but I've already invested 260 hours of my life on the PS3 version, so it is probably too late for me. :( --Coxis 00:25, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

Services

Her services are also available from 10am-6pm when she's sneaking. Should this be added to the article? --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 03:39, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

I have a distinct feeling, that the whole "sneaky"-part of her behaviour gets into effect after she have eaten, which happens between 12pm and 2pm. Right now, I'm following her around and will write a schedule later today. We will have to take it from there... Krusty 07:41, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Old discussion, new questions. I have just redesigned her page (the old schedule wasn't really all that good) and I'm still intrigued by her. So here's a question for you. When exactly is she supposed to sneak? I have never seen her sneak outside her 6pm-8pm eating time, but in the above post you say she should sneak between 10am-6pm. Also - and that might explain it - she will not offer training at all times during the afternoon. She is one of the NPCs that will offer training if you keep approaching her (see the note I added), suggesting that she has some other package going on for the duration of the day (a bit like Delphine Jend, just not so complicated I hope), which it is possible to "change" by talking to her repeatedly. Krusty 13:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I was slightly wrong. She doesn't actually sneak, she just has a "Find" package where she's looking for Touch spells. (What exactly that means, I'm not sure...scrolls, maybe? Or interacting with anybody who posess Touch spells? In testing, I found that she simply stands there most of the time.) In the end, there should be a 1 in 5 chance that the Find package is activated, so the same chance that she'll offer to train. I'm not sure how often packages are evaluated but in forcibly changing it, she often stood there with no visible change whatsoever. In other words, she might offer training one minute, but not the next.

Also, in testing the above, I discovered that City Swimmer won't always sit on the bench in front of The Lonely Suitor. As near as I can tell, she'll randomly pick any available chair, bench, etc., as I twice saw her sit on the chair outside Luciana Galena's house instead of the bench by The Lonely Suitor. —Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 21:58, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the checking! Sounds like my little note can stay - with a possible addition of "another AI-package that might activate" or something like that (that "Touch Spells"-thing is almost too weird to explain!). And I'll change the Lonely Suitor-part to include all available chairs in town. Once again, thanks! :) --Krusty 22:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Notes on the in-game schedule

She´s pretty weird. First and foremost, she doesnt have a regular route, that she follows. She's all over the map, at least in the northern part of town. In my experience, she only visits the southern part at 12pm, but I could be wrong. And the whole sneaking thing is a bit tricky as well: I have followed her for more than 6 in-game days, and have NEVER experienced her sneak before 6pm. On the other hand, sometimes she doesnøt sneak at all (not after 6pm either), so I might have been unlucky, that she didn't do it earlier in the day. And the bug is VERY important, 'cause it could cheat people into believing, that she doesnt offer any training. I did the "services" schedule the way I did, because I couldn't make her train me from 6pm to 8pm, therefore assuming, it was her "sneaky" period. And no more City-Swimmer for me, thank you very much! Krusty 16:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Dead City-Swimmer

I've found City-Swimmer dead in Bravil, with a stolen 'Bread Loaf' in her inventory. Perhaps she has been killed by the person who saw her steal it?— Unsigned comment by DarkNumenorean (talk • contribs) on 28 June 2009

City Swimmer is one of those NPCs with a responsibility of 30 or less. That causes her to steal food when no-other food source is available when she wants to eat. Someone saw her and alerted the guards is the most likely explanation. Wolok gro-Barok 16:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Ahh.. I searched on city-swimmer for just this reason. Saw her fleeing from a mob of several city soldiers which backed her into a wall and hacked her to death. WTF?? I had barely discovered the town of Bravil (2nd brief visit) and not spoken to her yet and already she got herself killed. Somehow in the melee the female captain of the bravil watch, Viera Lerus, pissed off the guards (hit them by accident while trying to help???) and they swarm attacked 4vs1 and killed her also. Another guard said something like "god rest her soul" while looting Viera's corpse. I checked on city swimmers corpse and indeed she had some stolen bread. At that point I was wishing there was someway I could kill all the guards for murdering two people over a loaf of bread.

Thinking I will load from earlier and try to prevent this. Loaded from a save 5 minutes prior and City-swimmer is killed everytime, but Viera usually survives (but occasional hits guards by accident causing them to swarm and kill her). Are the guards are suppose to be that much of bastards?! hahaaha! 75.51.13.171 04:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I managed to witness the whole event in my game - happened to be in just the right place when City-Swimmer pickpocketed a beggar (she'd already caught my eye because most NPCs don't sneak), the beggar alerted the guards, and they chased down and killed her. Repectful to the dead as always, I grabbed her house key. 71.74.71.250 07:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I made her essential via the console to prevent this from happening. Shortly after, "City-Swimmer is unconscious" appeared on the screen. I found her near the southern statue in Bravil, walking on the spot. She spoke to me, but I couldn't interact with her, and was actually able to walk right through her. Any ideas what has happened? ComaDivine EDIT: I'd actually saved it at that point, so I reloaded, and she went off on her merry way again. 14:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Bugs

Are we sure that her acting like she's male is a bug ? I seem to remember something about a sex change midway through the Argonian life-cycle, could be wrong though.--TheAlbinoOrc 00:04, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't find anything supporting your story. Not that I looked everywhere, but the most obvious search pages do not contain information like this. I would say it's a bug. ^Talk Wolok gro-Barok _{Contributions} 20:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, there is an old discussion that was treating this topic, see here --^MC• S'drassa ^•T2M 21:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

House

Checked her house and aside from a locked chest (very easy) by the dresser and not having found any jewelry in any of the three barrels (which could just be that I didn't find any) it's correct.--TheAlbinoOrc 15:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

There is only a slim chance that the piece of jewelry appears in the barrel, so that might explain it. Btw, keep in mind that if you are doing this for the ONPCRP, you can't do the checking in-game because the article was already written from the game. It can only be checked from the CS. If you have any further questions regarding work on the ONPCRP, don't hesitate to ask me on my talk page. --Krusty 15:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Schedule

There seems to be a problem with her schedule at 1:28 AM she's not in her house.--TheAlbinoOrc 15:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Update: at 1:34 she finally arrived.--TheAlbinoOrc 15:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

You probably used the wait- or fast-travel features, both of which are known to screw up the schedules in one way or the other. If you find her before 8pm, she will return to her house at 8pm, wander around for two hours until she finally goes to bed at 10pm. --Krusty 15:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

This is why there aren't more in-game testers isn't it ?--TheAlbinoOrc 16:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

No. There are more in-game writers. Only one in-game writer per NPC, however, as to avoid double work. There can also be only one CS-writer per NPC. ^Talk Wolok gro-Barok _{Contributions} 16:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I was being sarcastic guess it didn't translate well.--TheAlbinoOrc 18:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Dialogue

When I talked to her (for the fourth or fifth time so she'd already done this once) she greeted me with her does anyone see City-Swimmer speech is this normal for her ? Because I got the distinct impression from the article that she only says that once.--TheAlbinoOrc 15:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It is normal for an NPC to randomly repeat their first "greeting" if you keep approaching them. --Krusty 15:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

AI

Does her AI direct her to pickpocket NPCs before other sources of food or could you make sure she stays alive by placing food in a container/on the ground ?--TheAlbinoOrc 21:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Nope, she just wants to get her hands on some food, like beggars. If you place some in front of her she should pick it up and eat it. --SerCenKing ^Talk 10:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks.--TheAlbinoOrc 23:23, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

AI Again

Could you put food out of her reach so that she would stand, underneath a building or something and you won't have to keep putting food in front of her, or would she simply move on after not being able to get to it ?--TheAlbinoOrc 21:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

That is a bit tough to check in-game and I'm positive that she will just continue with her regular routine at 2pm and 8pm when her "meal" is finished. I also noticed your addition to her page - the tip to keep her alive - and it is pretty much a never ending task to keep putting food in front of her every time you visit Bravil. The idea is a good one, but I think the only way to make sure she stays alive is; never spend time in Bravil between noon and 2pm and 6pm to 8pm - and that solution is equally complicated. --Krusty 21:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, what I meant was would she go stand there trying to get the food or would she realize that she couldn't get to it and go try to find food elsewhere. Also it's true that you have to keep putting food in front of her but she only eats 1 piece every day right ? So if that's true then if you drop X pieces of food, since she only eats when you're there you only need to put fresh food down when number of visits = X.--TheAlbinoOrc 21:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure it works that way. She eats three times every day (one meal in her house and two outside). Problem is, she is all over the map and wanders everywhere in town, even in the Castle Gardens, making it hard to know where to place the food. Her being pursued by the guards also seems like coincidence - sometimes it happens, sometimes not. Spreading food all over the place sounds like a decent idea, but to prevent the beggars (and Reenum for that matter) from eating it could be quite a challenge. I'll try to test a few things tomorrow. --Krusty 22:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll try to do testing tonight or tomorrow also,it's my idea after all 8D.--TheAlbinoOrc 23:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay, some very quick testing proved the following; it's all about which NPCs will wander around town during her meals and if they carry any food with them. I just witnessed City-Swimmer ignore Reenum (he doesn't own any food, nor do the beggars), but she then went for Ursanne Loche who carries a (probably respawning) Bread Loaf, and stole it. The guards came, but she managed to survive the steal this time. If my theory is correct, then we have some sort of Big-Head thing going on. If we can nail down the NPCs wandering around town during the relevant times (the ones with food in their inventory), then maybe we can find a solution. At least, that's my theory. It's still a pain, but if Ursanne is the one causing the problem then it might help to take the extra time and steal the food from her before City-Swimmer makes an attempt. --Krusty 07:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

That should work, of course if you've either done the related quest or don't care about it, she would be a possible way into the DB thus solving two problems at once. Also the beggars have food bags waiting for them so they shouldn't take the food you drop right ? (Reenum is a different story though since he's not a beggar he doesn't have food back home)--TheAlbinoOrc 20:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I never meant that anybody should kill Ursanne in order to keep City-Swimmer alive - that would be a pretty big sacrifice to keep a basic trainer around. To make things worse, I just did some more tests and this time, the crazy Argonian stole food from Cosmus the Cheat and were killed by the guards. Cosmus were on his way from Aia's food bag (he always steals her food) and City-Swimmer just happened to be nearby at noon. So, I think my theory is no good. As a matter of fact, I think the easiest way to keep her alive is to save outside of Bravil and only enter outside her eating times. --Krusty 20:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Probably. Unfortunately it's all too easy to forget that and fast travel to somewhere inside Bravil instead of to the stables, or even miss slightly and fast travel to the gate instead.--TheAlbinoOrc 20:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I know that it is almost impossible to keep her alive. I would really like a bulletproof method, but I think the food tip wins, even if it means that you have to search all over town for her. --Krusty 21:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Well it might be possible to reverse pickpocket something like "Bound Boots of Drain Fatigue" onto her and take them back when necessary.--TheAlbinoOrc 22:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It might be possible, yes. But not worth mentioning on her page as these tips tend to get over-complicated and not too useful in the end. Let's keep the small food-tip for now, but maybe think of a better way to explain why she is in serious danger from getting pursued by guards and die. The sentence She has been seen being pursued by the guards and killed for pickpocketing. is not a very good one and could use some work. --Krusty 06:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Well during testing of the theory that she would keep going after whatever food source she chooses first I found that putting food at the bottom of the dock stairs seems to work for her and Reenum. Of course this was only after three or four in-game days but she hasn't died yet so...--TheAlbinoOrc 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Essential NPC City-Swimmer

Making a quick note here. To make sure City-Swimmer isn't killed from her pilfering, type "setessential 0000a109 1" into the console. If she steals anything and is attacked by guards, she will instead turn unconscious instead of being killed. 173.69.36.141 16:27, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Pronouns

In regards the attempt to make City-Swimmer an example of an early non-conforming gender icon. This is utter nonsense. There are many examples of Oblivion NPCs referring to themselves and to others with the wrong genders, nevermind the multiple bugs using wrong names and races. The voice actors for all of these incidents were simply reading off a script, they had little to no knowledge of the game, or where all their words were going to be used, or by who. That City-Swimmer's entire dialogue uses male pronouns spoken by a female voice actor is certainly a stand-out oddity, but it is a huge leap to think that that amounts to City-Swimmer being an openly non-binary character. Imposing modern views on history in an attempt to subvert and change facts to further your own goals is wrong on all levels. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:13, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree. Unless it's made clear otherwise, either that the technical gender is incorrect or that the person identifies as something else (I can't think of any examples), then we should be using the technical gender's pronouns. Assuming that with just a dialogue inconsistency is speculation. —Dillonn241 (talk) 21:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

What are some other examples of misused pronouns? Just curious :) Robsyourhouse (talk) 21:45, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

There are at least 16 NPCs who have incorrect pronouns associated with them, mainly in dialogue about them by other NPCs. These examples can be found Here (City-Swimmer is the only one listed who uses the incorrect pronouns about herself). Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:48, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, this has been very useful information! Robsyourhouse (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

(←) Because pronoun usage is a matter of gender expression and not gender identity, asserting that City-Swimmer's pronouns are he/him isn't spreading false information; technically, it's not even spreading information. No character actually states their preferred pronouns. Delphine Jend could be using they/them pronouns for all we know, but we couldn't actually tell, because the developers conflated sex and gender and we're expected to associate she/her pronouns with female characters and he/him pronouns with male characters. This is the case for almost every game in existence. So it's perfectly canon that City-Swimmer uses he/him pronouns, even though he is female in-game. Also, a bug is an error in a software program. The voice actor and subtitle dialogue is not a bug. It is entirely possible that it is a mistake. It is likely that it is a mistake. But to declare it a bug and 'fix' it as such as an error in judgement. It was 'fixed' on an unofficial patch, so it is not definitive that City-Swimmer is a cis female. It is entirely possible that he is a cis female. It is entirely possible that he is a trans male. It is entirely possible that he is the Elder Scrolls equivalent of non-binary, as are some Daedric Princes (i.e. Boethiah who is literally gender fluid). We don't actually know for sure, but the developers have not actually made a decision one way or another. In fact, every character could be non-binary for all we know. Hannibal Traven could be intersex. City-Swimmer's usage of he/him pronouns to describe himself may have been a mistake by the developers, but that is not known, and until it is known, I am more than happy asserting that he uses he/him pronouns. Robsyourhouse (talk) 22:20, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

First, bug and glitch are conflated and almost synonymous within gaming communities, as well as their general meaning covering anything that can be described as a mistake on the part of the developers. Second, you have to ask yourself if the issue of non-binary genders was anywhere near the thinking of the developers when they made the game. The answer to that is no. Genderless beings are nothing new, but identifying as one gender when your body is another (without the added intention of undergoing surgery to change your gender) is relatively new as a mainstream issue. Third, asserting that an issue that has only gained prominence years after a game was released had a bearing on a minor character within that game is just going to go nowhere. Sex and gender being "conflated" is not an accusation you can aim at the developers at the time, when the issue of conflation still lacks mainstream acceptability 13 years after the game was released.

Pre 2006, the developers wrote and coded this game, and every male character was male and every female character was female. Hannibal Traven is male because he uses a male body, its as simple as that. Through the process of creation, some characters genders and character models were changed in an attempt to make sure there was adequate representation and a balance of both genders throughout the game (some characters would even have been changed before their first models were created). In some cases males were changed to female, while some males were changed to female. Not all of what was written and coded changed with them, as we can see with the 16 examples documented with fixes by UOP.

No amount of desire to find a character within a game that can be held up as a representation of a certain issue being portrayed within a game will ever change the fact that that character and their entire situation was the result of a mistake on the behalf of the developers. What you have is confirmation bias, you wanted something to be true and an initial look confirmed it, so you thought that's how it was; but you didn't dig deeper to see the whole truth which debunks this crusade to prove something that just isn't true. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 23:11, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

"The answer to that is no." What question was I posing? Also, saying that the developers conflated sex with gender is not an accusation so much as an assumption. I'm assuming the developers formed the Oblivion gender system around the assumption that there will only be two sexes and, therefore, two genders. This is likely, since almost any game made during or after this time also made this assumption. It's not a judgement call, just an observation. This is obviously not representative of everyone in the Elder Scrolls universe, since Vivec was born intersex, and the Daedric Princes are canonically known to represent themselves with different genders. In Oblivion, Boethiah was represented as masculine, and in Skyrim, as feminine. This isn't simply because Boethiah possessed no fixed genitalia, but because Boethiah chose to represent themself this way. I think you might have a skewed understanding of sex and gender, and there are plenty of resources on the internet than can help you understand more about it. Robin Miki 23:42, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

In the end, what this comes down to is the same thing it comes down to for any other bug, easter egg, external reference, and so forth: can you prove that the developers intended this character to be non-binary? Since that cannot be proven by anything presented to this point, given that there isn't a single other reference in the game to City-Swimmer being male (and several indicating female), the most likely scenario is that this is an error of some kind (be it character design, dialogue typos, or whatever, as described above). That is therefore what we assume and what we document on the wiki. If you get right down to it, there are any number of assumptions that we're forced to make when it comes to this type of thing because we're not the game's developers. Maybe, for instance, Jakben Imbel has absolutely nothing to do with the phrase "Jack be Nimble". That seems highly unlikely, however. As Silencer has said, non-binary genders weren't on most people's radar 13 years ago (or more, when you allow for development time). That makes it unlikely that NPCs were intended to be identified this way. In those cases where it was intended, it was made incredibly obvious, as with the Daedric Princes. Since that's not the case with City-Swimmer, I see no reason to assume that this was anything more than an error that got missed during development. If they'd wanted to present the character as being non-binary, they could readily have given City-Swimmer male clothing or made some other reference to the male gender. They didn't.

Making this even more likely is the fact that both references to gender occur in the line "Does anyone see City-Swimmer? Is he gliding beneath the silver water? Is he creeping 'round a corner, hugging a wall, silent as a shadow in the dark?" There is nothing in that phrase that would make the voice actor question City-Swimmer's gender, since it sounds like City-Swimmer is some other person. The next line, "No! I am here! I stand proud before you, City-Swimmer, trainer of the prospective Sneaker, the sly sliding unseen!", which does make it obvious that the speaker is City-Swimmer, is a completely separate sound file, so we have no way to know if they were recorded back-to-back or weeks apart. Even if they were recorded back-to-back, the voice actor and recording artists may not have clued in, or may even have flagged it as a potential problem but then just not had time to re-record. In the absence of absolute proof, we go on the preponderance of evidence which, in this case, points to nothing more than a dialogue error. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 01:09, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

To lend credence to RobinHood's very valid points above, we do in fact have confirmation that Oblivion dialogue lines were not recorded together. This would obviously make it extremely easy to end up with pronoun errors in a case such as this, as illustrated by the many other in-game instances of pronoun confusion. —Legoless (talk) 13:19, 25 January 2019 (UTC)