Skyrim talk:Dragon/Archive 6

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Dragon discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Amount of gold as dragon loot

CSList has an entry for the amount of gold you can loot from a dead dragon. I'm not sure if I'm interpreting it properly, but this is what I see:

LootDragonGold: 100 to 300 gold, based on level

LootGoldChange: 1 to 9 additional gold possible (each one may be an individual possible adder)

plus additional gold based on selected perks.

Can someone who is good with CSList please verify this? --Xyzzy ^Talk 19:04, 1 November 2012 (GMT)

Hm, we have

• LootDragonGold: 100 to 300 gold leveled (min 100, max 300)
• 2 times LootGoldChange (min 0, max 18) (see here for the meaning of 'Each', called 'Calculate for each item in count' in the CK)
• 5 times LootPerkGoldenTouchChange (max 50)
• 5 times LootImperialLuck (max 50)

So that should be 100-318 gold without, and a maximum of 418 gold with perks. --Alfwyn (talk) 19:46, 1 November 2012 (GMT)

Looking closer at it (CSList), there may be more to consider. For that one another 300 gold may be added, summing up to max 618 without perks. I haven't exhaustively searched over all dragons however. --Alfwyn (talk) 20:05, 1 November 2012 (GMT)

Well, for now I'll keep it to DeathItemDragon01 and just mention, that there's more loot for the DG dragon types. --Alfwyn (talk) 16:25, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

Basic dragon that breaths sand?

I just encountered a basic dragon that breath sand at me and did a lot of stamina damage but very little health damage and as Mage that means something I also remember encountering this dragon before back in the release days though it was only a few times leading me to believe that even though it is a basic dragon it's a rare type that isn't often encountered as I have checked and seen no other postings on it the breath weapon was not fire it looked more like dust and sand with bits of twigs in it I know this cuz I stood in in and just let it hit me while I looked at it. The loot looked to be bout the same 3 bones 3 scale and random amount of gold The dragons color was that grayish brown color — Unsigned comment by 74.38.143.128 (talk) at 02:52 on 15 December 2012‎

What platform are you playing on? Do you have any mods? — ABCface^◥ 03:16, 15 December 2012 (GMT)

I'm running Xbox 360 and no mods just the dlc — Unsigned comment by 74.38.143.128 (talk) at 03:35 on 15 December 2012‎

I suppose it's possible that it's something added by Dragonborn, though I haven't encountered anything like this yet myself (level 64 character). We'll have to wait and see if other players have encountered this as more Dragonborn information is added to the wiki. — ABCface^◥ 03:46, 15 December 2012 (GMT)

I've seen something similar to this as well, since installing Dragonborn. Just the once though and I didn't pay close attention to it, but I think this is a DB dragon. --Morrolan (talk) 21:58, 16 January 2013 (GMT)

I've noticed that dragons' frost breath sometimes appears sandy in certain lighting conditions, particularly in the southern part of Solstheim and during dawn/dusk. Since the frost breath is usually white, the yellowish lighting can give it a slight beige tinge. Could it simply have been this? Norowane (talk) 13:24, 6 August 2013 (GMT)

Needs new dragon types

I understand that the Dragonborn expansion added a few new types of dragons to the game. We should probably list these here with all the other dragons. Cheezytrousers (talk) 07:37, 17 December 2012 (GMT)

Skeletons from the Sky

Regarding the statement "Sometimes after leaving a building or fast traveling, dragon skeletons will spawn and fall from the sky, without you fighting them at all." I'd like to see if someone can get confirmation on this. I suspect this is not a bug, but expected game behavior. When you kill something, the corpse location is saved in the game. However, the exact position is not saved, only the death location. So once the location clears from the cell buffer, any bodies that are still in that area are respawned at the death location, and go through the death animation again. You can see this visually in some dungeons, where enemies are just on the other side of a zone transfer door. If you kill it in view of the entry point, leave, waitr long enough, then return, you'll see the enemy fall down again. I don't know how long you'd have to wait (I suspect 48 hours) or if a simple pcb console command would get the same effect. That being said, I suspect the dragon skeletons falling from the sky are a similar event. A person returns to a location where they'd killed a dragon while the corpse is still there, so the game respawns a dragon corpse and lets it fall. I've had this happen three times in my games, and in each case it was at a location I'd killed a dragon. IN fact, in one case it allowed me to loot a dragon whose body had disappeared initially. It rolled down the mountain after the first kill, but after leaving (to do some other things) and returning to the location by fast travel, it respawned and fell where i could reach it.RandomTarget (talk) 15:11, 31 December 2012 (GMT)

I'm sure you're right and that it is just the game reloading a dead enemy (I've experienced the same issue, and it's always in the exact spot where I've killed a dragon before, or close enough), but I still think it's a bug. Just because we understand why it happens doesn't mean it should happen. I personally really doubt having corpses re-die or fall from the sky was intended game design, unless there's something odd in Skyrim lore I don't know about :P. ⇠eshe^talk 16:51, 31 December 2012 (GMT)

Good point. But by intended game design I meant it was probably a conscious decision on Bethesda's part to limit the size of save game files and such, rather than something that showed up as an unintended effect of something else. Perhaps I should add a note to the page? Maybe "Sometimes after leaving a building or fast traveling, dragon skeletons will spawn and fall from the sky, without you fighting them at all. This is caused by revisiting an area in which you've killed a dragon after the cell has been cleared, but before the corpse has disappeared. The corpse is respawned at it's death location."?RandomTarget (talk) 17:14, 31 December 2012 (GMT)

Yeah, I have to believe these oddities were left in for a reason, whether we like it or not :P. I think adding that part to the existing bug would be a good idea—any kind of extra clarity helps! ⇠eshe^talk 17:16, 31 December 2012 (GMT)

I made the change. I think the reason this is more noticeable with dragons is that their "start location" is always in the air. They apparently don't save the "z" coordinate when saving a body location :)RandomTarget (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2012 (GMT)

I think this change was done a bit prematurely, as I have experienced dead dragons or dragon skeletons fall from the sky in cells where I am unquestionably positive I never have encountered a dragon attack yet. (In my case inside Whiterun.) I have, however, not observed falling dragons or dragon skeletons for a long time, so I have believed the bug was removed by a patch, at least four-five patches ago. —MortenOSlash (talk) 19:08, 1 January 2013 (GMT)

Hmmm. I'll take your word for it, although I'd like to see any dragon death there ruled out (perhaps you were there before and a dragon showed up, but you left without noticing, and the guards killed it?). Anyway, perhaps a note (a sub-line under the current entry) that sometimes or often this is caused by etc, etc, etc? I just see a lot of people seeing the falling skeletons and assuming bug, even for the times when it isn't.RandomTarget (talk) 14:41, 4 January 2013 (GMT)(What do you mean, OCD? ;))

(←) I may of course have been an attack in Whiterun I did not register as I entered a house too fast, but I was more or less followed by this dead dragon at one time. It did not yield a soul, but appeared at random places where I travelled. I checked it was the same, because I placed a single ancient Nord arrow in its inventory, and could observe from this it was the same. For the most part it was laying around just inside the entrance to Whiterun, but on occasions it appeared in the wilderness. I think it stopped appearing to me around some patch sometime around 1.3 or 1.4, I think. —MortenOSlash (talk) 08:06, 5 January 2013 (GMT)

Serpentine dragons

Should we consider adding serpentine dragons to the list or are we waiting on the pc release? — Unsigned comment by 59.167.167.221 (talk) at 12:35 on 1 January 2013 (GMT)

Right now they have their own page here, but once we have easier access to game data it will be easier to add verifiable information to this page. It wouldn't hurt to have a link here, but I'd personally prefer waiting to actually add a separate section until we have more verifiable info. — ABCface^◥ 15:34, 1 January 2013 (GMT)

Miraak in Skyrim

If you are on Skyrim, will Miraak steal a dragon soul or is that only on Solstheim? - Cheezytrousers (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2013 (GMT)

He steals the soul on both Solstheim and Skyrim. Not known yet if there is a way of stopping him somehow. — Unsigned comment by 86.20.216.148 (talk) at 15:00 on 12 January 2013 (GMT)

Well, he stops once you complete the Dragonborn storyline and he's dead. --Morrolan (talk) 21:34, 16 January 2013 (GMT)

Unique Dragons

Should we list somewhere the unique dragons and their images? If so could I do it? I would love to have a major contribution to the page. - The Chez Cake ^{Talk to the Cheese} 08:23, 7 January 2013 (GMT)

The Named Dragons section provides links to each unique dragon's individual page. The skeletal dragon has its own page as well. — ABCface^◥ 08:41, 7 January 2013 (GMT)

Sorry I was just in the shower and I thought (yes I do think about the UESP in the shower,occasionally) that we should have a short description of each unique dragon (in my opinion, a dragon with a unique skin) and an image of it, and at the end of the short article we have a "for more information see...", similar to the one on Dragon Riding on the Dragon page. Sorry if I am sounding absurd and it would sound as if I am ignoring your reply almost completely. I just really think the Dragon page needs something like this. - The Chez Cake ^{Talk to the Cheese} 09:11, 7 January 2013 (GMT)

Since this page already has the Named Dragons table I linked above which gives summaries and provides links to the pages with images and more information, such a feature would be redundant. That would go against the style guide. — ABCface^◥ 15:34, 7 January 2013 (GMT)

Revered Dragons weakness

Revered Dragons with Fire Breath and weakness to fire? Is that right? — Unsigned comment by 189.83.106.165 (talk) at 08:59 on 7 January 2013‎

Nope, I had them reversed—can't believe I missed that! Thanks for spotting it. ⇠eshe^talk 15:25, 7 January 2013 (GMT)

Legendary dragons

The main page comments: Since Legendary Dragons only start to appear in regular leveled lists at level 78, this achievement is difficult to complete until your character reaches very high levels.

No kidding. I just hit level 78 with an Altmer Dragonborn, and here's the skill list. Destruction 83 Restoration 100 Alteration 100 Enchanting 100 Smithing 100 Heavy Armor 87 Block 73 Two-Handed 100 One-Handed 100 Archery 98 Light Armor 100 Sneak 100 Lockpicking 96 Pickpocket 100 Speech 98 Alchemy 100 Illusion 100 Conjuration 87

Most character builds max out before level 78. There are a lot of useless duplications on this character; for example, having both Archery and Destruction is essentially pointless, as is having both armor skills and both sets of melee skills. But here it is; perhaps some note could be made of just how long it takes to get the prerequisite level for Legendary Dragons on the page. --Morrolan (talk) 21:55, 16 January 2013 (GMT)

Legendary Dragon spawn?

I tried to spawn a Legendary Dragon (to get the achievement) by walking across skyrim, also visiting all dragon altars. I only got blood dragons, revered dragons and a frost dragon. I'm quite pissed because that is the last achievement i need for skyrim. Also I am level 79, play the Xbox360 version with all the DLC installed. How do I get a Legendary dragon to spawn? — Unsigned comment by 37.5.205.198 (talk) at 20:09 on 23 January 2013‎

They begin to appear at level 78 with dawnguard installed, and I can only assume that it is simply bad luck on your part that you haven't seen them yet. Jeancey (talk) 20:15, 23 January 2013 (GMT)

I had to kill about a dozen dragons after hitting level 78 before I got one. You need to force respawning probably. Try waiting 30 days and then go wandering around dragon sites again, or if you've completed the Blades rebuilding or the Companions questline doing their dragon hunting quests. --Morrolan (talk) 02:28, 25 January 2013 (GMT)

A second note, the actual fighting of the dragon was less impressive than I'd hoped. I'm playing at Master difficulty and it was over in about a minute or two. Level 78+ characters are hideously powerful. --Morrolan (talk) 02:30, 25 January 2013 (GMT)

Broken Paarthanex

Once when I did the quest to kill Paarthanex, I used a spell that instantly killed him while he was still talking. His health drained all the way and then started to regen like he was essential. Later when I fast traveled to a location some 4 hours later. He dropped from the sky like a rock and was dead before he actually hit the ground. All I heard was a loud thud. I got a soul and was still able to loot him. --Shadowviper (talk) 01:27, 29 January 2013 (GMT)

Killing a dragon too fast not advisable

Hi, just for fun I tried the alchemy/enchantement glitch and created a bow with >2000 basic damage. When shooting a dragon with this bow, it continues to fly one more round and then crashes. In several cases I was unable to find the body afterwards. --Romulus (talk) 12:23, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

Interesting, but because this requires an exploit, not worth noting in the article. --Xyzzy ^Talk 14:37, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

Double Dragon Fight

So, I fast travelled from Skyrim:Markarth to Skyrim:Kolskeggr Mine and I realised that there were two dragons. I pretty sure it was a blood Dragon and an elder Dragon. However, I accidentally killed my own follower and so I reloaded a save and when I returned there was only one Dragon, as usual. Has this happened to anyone else? Or am I mistaken? I personally see no reason why it couldn't have happened, it could just be a very rare event.--31.53.215.117 14:08, 5 February 2013 (GMT)

There are quite a few wandering dragons in the Reach. I've seen double-dragon tag teams. Usually it's because a random wandering dragon has wandered near one of the fixed dragon locations, but especially close to Sky Haven Temple you see a lot of wandering dragons. I'm surprised it happened after a fast travel though; fast travelling resets a lot of the positions of wandering creatures, are you sure you didn't walk from Markarth to Kolskeggr that first time? --Morrolan (talk) 20:12, 21 February 2013 (GMT)

Just a few days ago I encountered two Legendary Dragons when I fast traveled to Dawnstar from Whiterun, one flew right over Dawnstar from the East and the other was in the distance coming from the West. I accidentally hit a guard and received a bounty so I reloaded a save just before fast traveling, although only one dragon attacked after that. But like Morrolan said, I am pretty sure it was just a fixed dragon and random encounter dragon both setting their sights on the town. Very rare event though, I have only seen two of them at once on another occasion before. --Dremora Lord 19:49, 4 March 2013 (UTC)‎

I also came across this fast travelling from Riften to Whistling Mine (closest point to Thieves Guild quest area: Snow Veil Sanctum) two duelling dragons. one of them got shot out of the sky, i honestly didnt take a look at what types they were but i think they were both bloods. PS3 - V1.08 - lvl 35 Fennec--Fox (talk) 10:46, 18 March 2013 (GMT)

The topic of multiple dragon encounters has come up before, and it has been confirmed that it is possible. I will add a note to the article. --Xyzzy ^Talk 13:45, 18 March 2013 (GMT)

no soul

Since installing dragonborn dragon's don't give me souls anymore. And they are not stolen either same as respawned dragons but these should give a soul. — Unsigned comment by 82.73.72.148 (talk) at 15:57 on 6 February 2013

I've noticed the same thing, but since it has been known to happen without dragonborn, I didn't think it was connected. Granted, I've only come across 2 dragons since installing the expansion, but it is definitely a possibility. In any case, you can use the console command player.modav dragonsouls 1 every time this happens to add the dragon soul you earned but weren't given. Hope this helps! ThuumofReason (talk) 17:05, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

Same issue here. I killed two dragons at Skuldafn (trying to finish the main quest before heading to Solstheim) after installing Dragonborn but received no souls, and Miraak didn't show up either. I hadn't started the Dragonborn quest yet, but all the dragons I've killed since arriving in Solstheim and beginning the Dragonborn quest line have had the same result. I feel like the issue is not that the souls are not being absorbed, but that Miraak should be showing up to steal them. E nigma (talk) 23:01, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

In my case, it would appear the issue is the result of a conflict with the Unofficial Skyrim Patch. Disabling the patch fixed the problem. E nigma (talk) 23:27, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

I've also found this problem, and mentioned it on the Dragon Rising page. I disabled Dragonborn, and kept the Unofficial Skyrim Patch enabled, and absorbed a dragon's soul just fine. Definitely some kind of confliction. It seems though, from firsthand experience, that Dragonborn may be more to blame than the Unofficial Skyrim Patch. VycDarkshadow (talk) 03:07, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

If there's a conflict between an official add-on and an unofficial mod, the unofficial mod is the issue. Disabling Dragonborn only solved your issue in your firsthand experience because it removed the conflict not the problem itself. If it was actually an issue with Dragonborn, then more players would have been having this issue before the PC version was released, and that's not the case. — ABCface^◥ 03:24, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

(edit conflict) For future reference.... the unofficial mod is always to blame. When adding bugs to UESP, you must first disable all unofficial mods and then recreate the bug, otherwise it isn't admissible. Jeancey (talk) 03:26, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

I guess you have a point there, as i haven't noticed any Xbox users complaining of this problem. I mainly found it odd that it quit happening when i disabled Dragonborn and left Unofficial Skyrim Patch running (i had planned on disabling Unofficial Skyrim Patch and enabling Dragonborn if the problem happened again, actually), but the "fixing the conflict, not the problem" comment makes sense. Problem is noted, however, so i'll leave it be before i get myself in trouble again.VycDarkshadow (talk) 03:34, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

(←) In a related story, I killed a dragon that was sitting below a cliff that I was using as a perch to shoot arrows at it, near the extreme range of the bow (Auriel's Bow). When the dragon died, I didn't receive a soul, and I waited for a full minute to see if it would eventually give it to me. However, as soon as I jumped down the cliff and got close enough for the dragon's close-range, hi-def texture to load, it immediately started to disintegrate, allowing me to absorb its soul. It appears that in this case, the lack of soul absorption was related to the dragon's low-res skin. --Xyzzy ^Talk 05:34, 10 April 2013 (GMT)

It occurred again at Ancient's Ascent. Exact same circumstances. As an experiment, I saved the game before approaching close enough to load the hi-res skin. When I loaded the savegame, the dead dragon was wearing its hi-res skin, but I didn't immediately start absorbing the skin. I has to walk up close enough to loot the dragon, then it started burning up and I absorbed its soul.

I loaded the savegame again, and this time the dead dragon loaded with its hi-res skin, then it slowly dissolved away to nothing, leaving the arrows I had shot into it hovering in midair. After a couple of seconds, the dragon's skeleton appeared and started to burn away, allowing me to absorb its soul. There seems to be some scripting bugs associated with the dragon's skin that are affecting the soul absorbtion. --Xyzzy ^Talk 01:43, 26 April 2013 (GMT)

For me, this seem to be limited to glitched saves. It occurs in several of my saves but not others, and on top if I load glitched save and then load another save it will glitch the save (have to quit and restart the game to stop this happening). Tested this several times and seem to confirm this to the the case. Pretty sure for me it is not the Unofficial Patch because the glitch started before I used it.121.44.206.247 09:02, 10 June 2013 (GMT)

The proximity that is required to start the dragon soul absorption process has nothing to do with the dragon texture LOD. You will not be able to absorb the soul until you get within a certain distance of the dragon's corpse. This distance is close enough to be well within that were the LOD would change to the higher resolution. They are not related. Just as NPCs only make comments when you're nearby, dragon decomposition only occurs when you're close enough for it to happen.Kastagir (talk) 06:37, 22 June 2013 (GMT)

Achievements section

I noticed on the achievements section of this article, Dragonborn has it's own section for its achievement, while the "Legend" achievement from Dawnguard is grouped with vanilla achievements. Could anyone either give Dawnguard its own section or put the Dragonborn achievement to be coupled with the vanilla (and Dawnguard) achievements? 66.76.176.42 18:04, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

Dragonborn has its own namespace. Dawnguard doesn't. That's why Dragonborn has its own section. Jeancey (talk) 18:08, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

Since there's only one achievement for Dragonborn and not much reason to separate them into multiple sections, I just got rid of the header altogether. ⇠eshe^talk 18:12, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

I thought there were 10 achievements for Dragonborn. Am i misreading? VycDarkshadow (talk) 03:08, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

On this article, only one Dragonborn achievement is listed. — ABCface^◥ 03:20, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Ahh, ok. I misunderstood that part. VycDarkshadow (talk) 03:37, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

IDs for Dragons? ...

Wouldn't it make more than a little sense to add the IDs for the different dragon types to the page? The physical stats and whatnot are shiny enough, I suppose... but not having the IDs is somewhat of a bummer. ~ SotiCoto (talk) 03:07, 17 February 2013 (GMT)

They are there, just hidden a bit. Move your mouse over the Breath type and the ID numbers should appear. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 03:15, 17 February 2013 (GMT)

I... see. Well, I'm glad they are actually there, but why are they hidden? To go around looking for hidden mouseovers certainly isn't my first instinct when visiting a page in search of IDs. ~ SotiCoto (talk) 18:39, 17 February 2013 (GMT)

Good point. There appears to be plenty of room in the table to list the IDs out. I was going to try it, but realized that I have no skill with tables. Maybe someone else could put them in their own column, unless others object. --Xyzzy ^Talk 05:39, 18 February 2013 (GMT)

I broke them out into a new column. I originally kept them hidden to help the tables stay nice when the window is a bit narrower, but it seems to be okay, so...there ya go! ⇠eshe^talk 16:37, 19 February 2013 (GMT)

Dragons spawning in cities

Has this glitch gone up in frequency since DB was released, it has happened to me twice in Solitude and once in Markarth after fast travel?Wrath425 (talk) 00:31, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

What do you mean with glitch? As I suppose you do not refer to the ordinary spawning of a dragon attacking the inhabitants of a city, I guess it is the dragon skeleton you are writing about? —MortenOSlash (talk) 06:36, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

A dragon spawning in a city is an extremely rare occurence, I think it's just that it never happened to Wrath425 before. Elakyn (talk) 10:48, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

Clarification I mean dragons spawning inside walled main cities like Solitude and Markarth and attacking, while for a nice change pace the NPC civilians run and hide and let the guards deal with the dragon, instead of stupidly chasing and trying to punch it to death like they normaly do.Wrath425 (talk) 18:25, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

As I said, it's very rare but it does happen and is not a glitch. I personnaly had two atacks in Whiterun, one in Solitude and one in Windhelm, although they all happened several months ago. Elakyn (talk) 18:32, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

Dragon paralysis

Are dragons immune to paralysis? If not, I'm just dreaming of the havoc I could wreak! - 96.228.80.73 19:46, 31 March 2013 (GMT)

If you had read the page before asking the question, you would have found under Appearance and Types -> Abilities that "Dragons are immune to paralysis […]." —MortenOSlash (talk) 19:58, 31 March 2013 (GMT)

Sorry, I see now. Guess I missed it before. 96.228.80.73 13:02, 1 April 2013 (GMT)

Legendary Dragon: freaky early spawn

I just encountered a Legendary Dragon with a level 51 character. I was approaching the Karthspire from the south, doing the quest Alduin's Wall. Normally a fairly tough dragon spawns there, near Old Hroldan; I fought a Frost Dragon and thought, ok, is that it? Then a Legendary Dragon shows up. Fortunately I've completed Dragonborn on this character so I didn't have to fight him, but he was definitely using full legendary dragon attacks when I was flying on his back. Has anyone else ever seen this? --Morrolan (talk) 16:19, 17 July 2013 (GMT)

The note is technically true, but it strongly implies that you must be level 78 to complete this achievement when it does not appear to be the case. You may not wish to discuss this for whatever reason, but I posted this over a week ago now - as usual, the discussion page is getting ignored, but I've been patient. --Morrolan (talk) 20:40, 25 July 2013 (GMT)

Skyrim uses "leveled lists" for random encounters with various enemies, some of which are simple and some more complex. The leveled list for random dragon spawns can be found here, though it has been changed by the Dawnguard DLC. If you want to check the updated list that applies to players with Dawnguard, you'd look at this list instead (though nothing changed for the encounters before level 59, at which point Revered & Legendary dragons are added to the list).

In any case, the list does verify that for random dragon spawns, the encounter level for Legendary dragons is 78. One important thing to remember is that certain locations may be set to a higher level than your character's level, and have different lists being used, so it may be possible to encounter certain levels earlier or later than you would expect based on that list. That list for random dragon spawns is what's used most often though, as other encounters are exceptions to the rule related to specific places or quests.

With the exception of skeletal dragons, every single dragon on this page has information listed on when they appear for regular leveled lists. Dragon spawns based on regular leveled lists are what you will encounter most often in the game, and what we have documented across the entire article for that reason, for six months now. Yes, it is possible to encounter standard dragons (of all types, not just legendary) before they are set to appear in regular leveled lists. This is not unique to legendary dragons.

As for the note on the achievement:

"Since Legendary Dragons only start to appear in regular leveled lists at level 78, this achievement is difficult to complete until your character reaches very high levels."

This should not be removed from the article, because it is both true and notable. It is very hard to reach level 78 (as you indicated yourself in a previous section on this page). Yes, it is true. The achievement is difficult to achieve before high levels, not impossible. — ABCface^◥ 20:50, 25 July 2013 (GMT)

Then why are you attempting to remove information about how to obtain the achievement before level 78? If it's hard to do, then surely information on that topic is useful. --Morrolan (talk) 21:21, 25 July 2013 (GMT)

I'm not sure why you think I'm attempting to remove information on how to obtain the achievement before level 78, as that was not my intention at all. Please assume good faith. The point of removing the VN tag is that it did not belong there, as 1) it's been verified that legendary dragons appear in leveled lists at level 78, 2) it's already been verified that dragons of all types can occasionally be encountered before they appear in leveled lists, and 3) if it belonged anywhere at all, it would be in the legendary dragon section where the leveled list information is first documented, rather than the achievement section where the note written is true. The original note stated that they "cannot be encountered" until 78, and the wording was already changed to address this half a year ago. I'm not sure what the issue is, but a VN tag doesn't belong on the page regarding the legendary dragon encounter level.

As for providing tips to players on how to encounter a legendary dragon before level 78, it doesn't belong on the article (and certainly not in the achievements section) until something concrete is known, such as that one will always spawn near X once you're level Y. That isn't known, and an improper VN tag is not how to determine that. — ABCface^◥ 21:35, 25 July 2013 (GMT)

The first edit I made indicated the particular quest which spawned a dragon, which was based on a concrete ingame experience. I made it because, essentially, nobody replies to posts on discussion pages like this one unless there's something linking them to the discussion page; most of my discussion posts have gone unanswered, especially when I'm asking a question about the game and suggesting further research be done. I note that you replied to the topic I posted at the bottom of this page which didn't require any research to answer.

It's tough assuming good faith when most of the edits are simple undoes as well; it'd be one thing if I was abusing the site, but I don't think I am. Certainly that's not what I'm trying to do. --Morrolan (talk) 00:47, 26 July 2013 (GMT)

Skeletal dragon

Yes, it's possible to meet the skeletal "dragon" before Mirmulnir. I never really thought of that as being a dragon, though, more of an undead creature that used to be a dragon. It's the only dragon you kill (with the possible exception of Alduin) that doesn't give a dragon soul as well. --Morrolan (talk) 22:51, 17 July 2013 (GMT)

We could easily change the wording to still be true, but present the information differently. For instance, "The first named dragon" or "The first standard dragon" or something. Either way, the skeletal dragon is still a dragon, which is why the same revision has been made multiple times. — ABCface^◥ 00:05, 18 July 2013 (GMT)

Immortality

I can't seem to find this information everywhere but to me it seems obvious so I'll post it here. Dragons seem to be immortal. Paarthurnax was never killed in the original Alduin uprising, and that was thousands of years ago. The fact that he's still alive seems to prove that. Mirmulnir also had been alive the whole time according to the Atlas of Dragons. Most people seem to take it for granted or whatever, but I thought I'd post it here sense it's not on the normal info page of dragons. Griffmstr (talk) 08:50, 28 July 2013 (GMT)

Agreed. According to Paarthurnax they are immortal (which is noted on the lore page). I added this to article. --Xyzzy ^Talk 14:50, 28 July 2013 (GMT)

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