Skyrim talk:Dragonborn/Archive 3

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Dragonborn discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

New dialogue added to Lydia?

On my new playthrough, I arrived at Raven Rock with Lydia and heard her say "So, this is Raven Rock?", can't seem to get her to say it again when returning there though. Anyone else heard this? --24.92.180.9 22:50, 29 December 2012 (GMT)

Most likely just new general dialogue recorded for each race/gender, and not specific to lydia. Jeancey (talk) 22:55, 29 December 2012 (GMT)

There seems to be a new set of comments specific to Lydia:

• Raven Rock: "So this is Raven Rock, eh? Not all that much to look at."
• Tel Mithryn: "I've heard tales of the mushroom towers of Morrowind. Never thought I'd see one."
• Temple of Miraak: "Someone's been busy."
• any Maker Stone: "Hmm. Reminds me of the standing stones back home." (Cleansing the Stones completed)

"There's something... wrong here." (otherwise)

• some time during The Temple of Miraak: "She fights well enough, for a Skaal."

--Alfwyn (talk) 23:19, 29 December 2012 (GMT)

I've brought three different followers over to Raven Rock with me and wandered around. The enhanced dialogue so far has only been with Lydia. I'm going to try to find Serana and see what she says, if anything.

• Regarding Rieklings - "I'm not sure whether to pet it or to kill it!"

Also been hearing a lot of "For Whiterun!" in combat with her, too.

And when you use a Black Book - "Not AGAIN!"

Also, give her something to carry. She now has other things to say than "I am sworn to carry your burdens", although that's still in the speech roster.

So yeah, they've REALLY expanded Lydia's speech. I think this ought to be added either in the notes under Lydia that with DB installed, she talks a lot more (almost as expressive now as Serana) or in the DB general notes.

Agmen (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2013 (GMT)

It would belong on Skyrim:Lydia as it's specific to her. — ABCface^◥ 02:49, 9 January 2013 (GMT)

That works. I've added a brief synopsis under Notes on that page then about this.Agmen (talk) 04:51, 11 January 2013 (GMT)

(←) The different trade dialogue was added before Dragonborn because on PC all housecarls now say things like: how can I serve my thane. You should check it for others with the same voice as Lydia as well. Check Mjoll too given all the dialogue she has. — Unsigned comment by 82.73.72.148 (talk) at 20:29 on 18 January 2013

I've got Erandur (who has a ton of random dialogue, like Mjoll). He hasn't made any new comments on Solstheim. If he does any quest-related dialogue I'll mark it here. Alarra (talk) 08:42, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

I have used the creation kit to check this and can confirm that only Lydia has new dialogue. — Unsigned comment by 82.73.72.148 (talk) at 14:03 on 9 February 2013

Not sure if you meant followers with new dialogue only (Lydia may be the only one, in that case) but if you mean base game NPCs with new dialogue in general, Sapphire has some too. Not sure of any others. — ABCface^◥ 17:09, 9 February 2013 (GMT)

Well, it turns out that Erandur does have new dialogue for when you use Black Books - "I can't believe you do that on purpose" and "That can't be good for you" are the ones I've heard so far. No new Solstheim-related dialogue though. Alarra (talk) 22:20, 11 February 2013 (GMT)

That's not unique dialogue for Erandur, but general new follower dialogue, specifically for male dark elves. Jeancey (talk) 22:23, 11 February 2013 (GMT)

(←) It seems it's not just her dialogue that's improved. Her fighting style has gotten better. I now see her using power attacks all the time, leaping and thrusting and such, which she never did before. I brought several other followers over (including other housecarls), and none of them behaved this way. In fact, it's only after seeing her do this that I realize I'd almost never seen any NPC do a real power attack until now. I don't think it's any of my mods that are causing this. (I have very few, and most don't affect gameplay much.) I wonder why so much focus on just Lydia? I mean, she probably is the most popular follower/wife among players, merely because she's likely to be your first full-time follower. But that doesn't mean the rest of them don't deserve some love... TheRealLurlock (talk) 19:38, 16 February 2013 (GMT)

New music?

Coming purely from someone who appreciates when good music adds to a game's appeal, I was wondering if the music that plays on Solsteim is new music that should be added to the Skyrim Music page or is simply updated versions of music from Morrowind? Having never played Morrowind before, I'm unaware of what the music from said game is so am relying on another's opinion to clarify this for me. Thelisaraptor (talk) 23:24, 3 January 2013 (GMT)

Its just an updated version of Morrowinds music, even the cries of the beasts heard when around the Silt Strider is the same.--Dro'Bakha (talk) 07:49, 4 January 2013 (GMT)

Most of it is Morrowind music (and it's identical as far as I can tell), but there are four new tracks, as well as a track for the boat arrival and Apoprcrypha ambient tracks. There's someone on YouTube who uploaded them all, if you look up "Dragonborn dlc soundtrack"; their Solstheim 08-11 videos are the four new ones. The others are from Morrowind. Alarra (talk) 08:38, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

A request for the Dragonborn DLC section.

Hello everyone. I just want to request something. When the DLC is released on PC and all the new information will be uploaded to UESP , add the numbers of the new items / NPCs / spells and etc. I know I explain myself horribly so here's how I think it should look. ( Example from Dawnguard ) http://i46.tinypic.com/54j891-png

It really helps to see the amounts of new added content without spoiling anything ( Yes I'm that obsessed. ) Thanks in advance ! — Unsigned comment by IZsoul (talk • contribs) at 10:45 on 12 January 2013 (GMT)

I second this request! The numbers do help overall, for some odd reason. Its the small things that matter. "Story of Achilles" - (Short Version) "Mom saw that her son would die. NOT (how). She dipped him in the river Styx to make his skin impenetrable. Well he died anyway because she didn't bathe the ankle she held him by in it too. Its the little things that matter. 68.97.139.220 02:22, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

The numbers end up in the categories, the one for Category:Dragonborn leads to all the others, while Category:Dragonborn-Items has leads to the item categories. Of course these may not be complete, but the data has already been mostly extracted. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 02:28, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

PS3 Dates

Have fun: https://twitter.com/BGS_Devs/status/297361461355892736 68.190.126.248 15:14, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

Thanks for the info! An administrator is writing a news blurb for the main page as I type this, and the related pages will be updated with the information shortly. — ABCface^◥ 15:23, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

EU Dates

Have fun: http://www.bethblog.com/2013/02/01/psn-release-dates-for-dragoborndawnguardhearthfire/ 68.190.126.248 14:43, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

Thanks for the info! The news blurb has been updated. • JA^T 15:08, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

Cost

I believe it should be reflected in the article how much Dragonborn costs on the PC, as not everyone knows the conversion of Microsoft points to dollars. 66.76.176.42 19:58, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

Lets see what it is before we add it to the article. Prices can change overnight too. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 20:18, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

I am almost certain it will remain $19.99, as Dawnguard on Steam is still $19.99 and Hearthfire is still $4.99. I understand the reason for withholding the information, however. 66.76.176.42 20:52, 4 February 2013 (GMT)

A few fine PC Dragonborn screenshots. [ Spoiler-Free ]

Hey everybody. I just installed Dragonborn for PC , I was pretty sure my game will crash horribly with all the mods , but it was not the case.. I was actually amazed how well mods worked with the DLC , I mean , most of the mods worked PERFECTLY with Dragonborn. Well , here are some shots I took , not going to play until the major mods get an update , a week or something like that..

Screens

Well , this is Dragonborn at it's finest , with ENB and whatnot.. :D

( I really don't understand it , I posted the same thing a few minutes ago , it told me about spamming , no idea why o.o ) — Unsigned comment by IZsoul (talk • contribs) at 21:24 on 5 February 2013

The wiki has a filter which is used to help lower the amount of spam added on pages, and your external link probably triggered the filter due to its conditions. You were still allowed to make the edit, and there are no issues for you regarding this, so nothing to worry about.

Normally, a post like this would be deleted on sight because it is really more suited to the forums -- as noted on the top of the page when editing, talk pages are meant for discussing the contents of the article or for asking specific questions (not for casual discussion about the games or promotion of your images). In this case, I'm going to refer you to this category and the image guidelines page, since the wiki is in need of many Dragonborn images and we would love your help! — ABCface^◥ 21:35, 5 February 2013 (GMT)

New dialogue in Skyrim's cities

Since I installed Dragonborn I've heard a vast amount of new lines of dialogue in Riften and Whiterun. For example, long conversations between various NPCs in Riften about things that have been stolen- Mjoll goes around to several different NPCs asking if they've seen a gold ring she's lost, Grelka argues with the other shopkeepers over whether she fences stolen items... I could have just somehow missed them before, but I've been to these cities a lot and never heard any of this. Still digging through the creation kit to find evidence, but wanted to make a note of it. — Unsigned comment by 208.75.23.238 (talk) at 10:04 on 6 February 2013‎

That's really amazing , if it's true of course.

Personally never heard of anything like that before Dragonborn , I really hope it's true and there are many of these :D — Unsigned comment by IZsoul (talk • contribs) at 12:25 on 6 February 2013‎

It's definitely not any of the other mods I'm using. Either I missed a lot of dialogue the first time I played through with Dragonborn (and the dialogue doesn't appear on any of the NPCs pages) or the DLC added it.--208.75.23.238 07:47, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

For the Mjoll ring dialogue, it's in the base game. See here. I'm thinking the same is true for Grelka as well, but if you could give exact quotes, that would be helpful. — ABCface^◥ 08:04, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Ah, gotcha. I didn't even know that was a resource; I think I found the other examples too. It's possible a bug was preventing these scenes from playing and the USKP fixed it for me.

Wow, I had no idea how many scenes were available to play in the cities; I've put in a couple hundred hours and I've heard maybe... five percent? ten percent of them? It's really too bad they don't play with more reliability! Some of these are great! --208.75.23.238 08:08, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

They could simply have fixed some of the script glitches so that material that was always there now appears in-game as it should. 174.6.51.17 10:09, 26 February 2013 (GMT)

Weird issue with Dragonborn scripts

Got the DLC today, immensely enjoying it, but I've noted that some stuff simply doesn't work for me. Using the floating platform in Tel Mithryn merely gets me stuck a few feet above the ground. The attacks by the seeker that sound like crackling lightning don't affect me at all, beyond making the screen fuzzy for a short bit. Dragon souls are not absorbed, their corpses just lie there without becoming skeletons. And when I tried to ride Sahrotaar, the guy left me behind to go have fun all by himself. Anyone know what could have caused this? --85.191.86.135 15:35, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

I'm going to assume you just got it for PC when I ask this question :P What other mods do you have installed, both third party and official. If you have a 3rd party mod, it could be interfering with Dragonborn somehow. Jeancey (talk) 17:33, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

Aye, should have specified that. I have neither of the other two official DLCs, but do have a number of mods. Most of these mods only have influence on a small area or a few items, but I'm also running T3nd0s Skyrim Redone--85.191.86.135 18:40, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

Try enabling ONLY Dragonborn and see if the bugs still occur. That way we can rule out the other mods as the cause of the bugs. Jeancey (talk) 18:43, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

Tried, and the problem still persists.--85.191.86.135 19:16, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

I've had the same problem with dragon souls not being absorbed and the corpse not disintegrating with Dragonborn installed. I'll spare the details though, as i've already noted them on the Skyrim:Dragon and Skyrim:Dragon Rising talk pages. From what i'm reading, you tried again with JUST Dragonborn running, and had the same problem again. Am i reading this correctly? VycDarkshadow (talk) 03:48, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

A user on the forums noted the same bug with riding dragons, and the fix that worked for them. Here's what they said:

• "After examining the Dragonborn.bsa file, I found that it edited the skeleton.nif file for Dragons. Went and looked at my folder and found that I had a skeleton.nif file for Dragons already there. Deleted it, and now I can ride Dragons without being mysteriously left behind."

Maybe that might help with that one issue, at least. — ABCface^◥ 03:59, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Dragons not giving souls at all.

Since I've started Dragonborn, I've been unable to absorb any souls at all. It's not that Miraak is taking them, the dragons just aren't dying right. Once defeated the body just stays and does nothing, just like any other normal enemy would. I've tried everything I can think of and it doesn't help. Now I'm fighting Miraak and he's stuck because he can't take the dragon souls either. My friend is having the same issue, so it's not just me... — Unsigned comment by 74.78.229.153 (talk) at 04:18 on 7 February 2013‎

Are you using any 3rd party mods like USKP? Jeancey (talk) 04:23, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Yes, I use the patch, but I took it and all other mods off, still doesn't work. I looked for the skeleton.nif file mentioned in the post above mine, but I have none that I can find, so no go on that fix.— Unsigned comment by 74.78.229.153 (talk) at 04:41 on 7 February 2013‎

Well, so far, it has been confirmed that USKP causes this. The new UDBP, by the same people, reportedly fixes the inconsistency caused by USKP, so you might want to try that. I haven't seen any reports of this on Xbox, or from people who haven't, at some point, downloaded USKP. Jeancey (talk) 04:44, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Removing the USKP from a game in progress is about the worst thing you can do to your savegame. You'll break dozens of scripts and quests. You should know this if you're willing to use the USKP, which now goes well beyond "fixes." The issue with dragon souls not being absorbed is due to a script that is edited by the USKP - this edit is reverted in the UDBP. Those that don't use the unofficial patches don't have this problem.Kastagir (talk) 05:26, 9 February 2013 (GMT)

Personally, I have found that the dragons that existed already in-world (such as sitting atop a word wall at a dragon point) don't give their dragon souls. Dragons that have spawned afterwards give them (with or without the UDBP installed) Kalbintion (talk) 03:54, 11 February 2013 (GMT)

That is a separate bug that existed prior to Dragonborn's release. Jeancey (talk) 04:13, 11 February 2013 (GMT)

I had no problems with absorbing dragon souls prior to obtaining the Unofficial patches for Skyrim and DLCs. Which makes me doubt it existed prior unless the unofficial patches caused the bug to surface. ᴷᴬᴸᴯᴵᴻᵀᴵ□ᴻ 00:49, 12 February 2013 (GMT)

(←) Even with the UDBP installed, I'm still getting this problem. Dragons simply don't disintegrate, nor do they give souls, neither in Skyrim nor in Solstheim. I just noticed, though, that due to updates and such, the load order of the unofficial patches was wrong. I've fixed the order, and I'll report back next time I run into a dragon. I'm also in Solstheim at the moment, and I gather from the initial comment that perhaps it's not unusual to not get dragon souls here. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 09:03, 16 February 2013 (GMT)

Just detoured to Ancient's Ascent, and killed a regular dragon. All went well, so unless it's an issue specific to Ancient Dragons, which is what the last few were for me, it seems it was most likely the load order causing the issue for me. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 09:28, 16 February 2013 (GMT)

Wilderness dragons that have respawned sometimes don't provide souls. —Legoless (talk) 16:19, 16 February 2013 (GMT)

Main template

Shouldn't this page use the addon template just like hearthfire and dawnguard? I mean it is a rather big plug-in/expansion/addon but still not an entirely new game... this is quite inconsistent with other addons. Any thoughts?
Peace, Ͽ †yræl Ͼ 23:10, 7 February 2013 (GMT)
PS One more thing, imho there should be disambig page for Dragonborn, honestly i have no idea why the page is called Dragonborn:Dragonborn and not Skyrim:Dragonborn_(Plugin). Yet again, not consistent with the rest of addons.
Peace, Ͽ †yræl Ͼ 23:19, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

The decision for Dragonborn to be in its own namespace was made through consensus in this discussion on the Community Portal. Additonally, we have a disambiguation page at Skyrim:Dragonborn which leads users to this page. We have done this in the past with DLC as well, see Bloodmoon:Bloodmoon, Tribunal:Tribunal and Shivering:Shivering Isles. — ABCface^◥ 23:24, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Mage Battle Bug

2 mages battling and one is an ice wizard but is only using lightning spells — Unsigned comment by 173.51.248.19 (talk) at 23:09 on 8 February 2013

I wouldn't consider that a bug, more a matter of personal preference. Kill 'em all and let the gods sort them out. (And yes, that was intended to be humorous.) Agmen (talk) 04:59, 18 February 2013 (GMT)

A recent note? (3-1-13 today)

So I see a note that reads "Dragonborn was subject to a 30 day exclusivity deal with Microsoft, where it was only available on the Xbox 360. As it turned out, it was February 2013 before it was released for both the PC and the PS3." It REALLY does not seem necessary, seems more like a rant than anything. Where it would go, IF at all really, would be under 'Trivia'. Personally, it shouldn't be anywhere on this page, it's somewhat(lightly saying very) worthless here. — Unsigned comment by 67.142.163.23 (talk) at 04:41 on 2 March 2013‎

We do not have Trivia on this wiki; such information goes under Notes. It's not worthless because some individuals may care for the Microsoft exclusivity, and I myself find it interesting. Dragonborn, Dawnguard, and Hearthfire have all had 30-day Microsoft exclusivity deals, so it's certainly notable somewhere. Vely^►t►e 04:50, 2 March 2013 (GMT)

It's not even a new note as such, it was, until yesterday, in the opening paragraph for each of the add-ons. I removed it from there as its not really relevant to the page as they are basically available everywhere for everyone now. A note that informs people that the add-on was delayed for longer than it was planned is perfectly relevant. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 13:15, 2 March 2013 (GMT)

Gildergreen disappearing completely when returning from Solstheim?

I've fast-traveled several times from Skyrim to Solstheim, and each time i return to Whiterun, the Gildergreen is gone. I've completed The Blessings of Nature, bringing sap to Danica to fix the tree. When i close out the game and go back in, the tree returns, but while it's gone, i can completely run right through where the tree should be. Anyone else experiencing this? VycDarkshadow (talk) 16:00, 11 March 2013 (GMT)

I had this, but I thought it was a consequence of having completed Battle for Whiterun for the Imperials, which makes a lot of changes to the city. My other character played for the Stormcloaks, and the tree didn't disappear. Though the other difference is the other character brought back sap, while this one did the sapling, so maybe it's just the sapling that causes it, not which side you take in the war. In either case, I don't think it was caused by Dragonborn, but I could be wrong. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2013 (GMT)

I haven't joined either side in the civil war yet. In fact, i haven't even talked to Ulfric or Tullius yet on this chari. And it only seems to happen when i return from Solstheim and go to Whiterun. VycDarkshadow (talk) 23:47, 11 March 2013 (GMT)

There are known bugs that cause the tree (either one) to spawn incorrectly after the quest, even before Dragonborn's release. Are you on a console or PC? If PC, do you have the USKP installed? It supposedly fixes some of this, though the official 1.9 patch (currently beta) may also help for console users. Either way, any mention of this issue probably belongs on the quest page, rather than here. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 23:47, 12 March 2013 (GMT)

Yeah, i'm on PC, and i also have USKP installed. I only notice it happening when i travel between Solstheim and Skyrim. And i wasn't 100% certain which page to mention this on; if you wish to move it to its proper place, feel free to do so. VycDarkshadow (talk) 03:59, 20 March 2013 (GMT)

says dragonborn is official plugin but not listed under tab on side bar

so i reallllly dont understand all the changes always being made to the sidebar and all the arguments over what is a dlc and what is an expansion and all the arbitrary rules made based on old games to decide what goes where. i think ease of use should override making unnessary complicated links because you think its a dlc because you think its to small to be an expansion.. i.e. adding the extra plugin tab for the other dlc's but not dragonborn. the main point is that this page lists dragonborn as the 3rd official dlc, and since i have seen a lot of arguments over being consistant as the most important rule when deciding where to put things it seems really stupid to put the 1st 2 dlc's under the "offical plug ins" tab but not dragonborn, since the page clearly lists it as another offical dlc it should be in the same tab on the sidebar with the other dlc's or each one should get there own tab and eliminate the extra menu that serves no purpose. i mostly want to point out how completely arbitrary the decisions are about where things are put based on random lines drawn about size and comparisons to previous games. either every dlc gets a side tab or they all go in the dlc tab. i have yet to find guidelines that make sense about all the changes.--Lord.Baal (talk) 07:14, 21 March 2013 (GMT)

I don't really like the new side bar either, I liked it better before. Anyway... as far as I can tell, in the new design it is like that because Dragonborn has its own space on the wiki and the other DLC did not, just like Shivering Isles, Tribunal, and Bloodmoon. — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 07:41, 21 March 2013 (GMT)

Sidebar aside, the reason Dragonborn has its own separate link is because Dragonborn is a whole namespace. If you look at Dragonborn:Dragonborn, Skyrim:Dawnguard, and Skyrim:Hearthfire, you'll notice the prefix is different. Namespaces are made to organize content that can't reasonably be integrated into the main game's namespace, such as the case with all the Dragonborn locations in Solstheim being places listed separate, rather than cluttering up the Skyrim, Dawnguard, and Hearthfire locations, which were all in Skyrim (same goes for other content, locations is just one example). You'll notice the same organization with Shivering:Shivering Isles, Bloodmoon:Bloodmoon, and Tribunal:Tribunal. That's the entire reason it's separate. To make it easier to find the separate namespaces. ES^{(talk•email)} 07:50, 21 March 2013 (GMT)

The new sidebar works well for older games due to the clear plug-in/expansion distinction, but (namespaces organization aside) for Skyrim, the old sidebar looked perfect. Especially since now that 'plug-in' is an archaic term that isn't relevant anymore. --Jimeee (talk) 10:39, 21 March 2013 (GMT)

o this made me laugh! really didnt address the main question which is why it is not consistent, being as bethesda called them all offical plugin and all of the pages start with that title but dragonborn isnt under that category on the side. having said that i understand why you would want its own sidebar, i find it amusing that at some arbitrary level you decide it gets its own namespace, why not call everything from dawnguard, dawnguard:dawnguard, or skyrim:dragonborn. the main point is that ease of use should drive the sidebar not random choices about how to name pages. im quite aware of the whole argument that was made over shivering isles vs the other dlc's and morrowind, and those were separate expansions, dragonborn was as bethesda labeled it, the 3rd in a line of offical plug ins. either all of them should get a namespace or non of them should. ill give you that dragonborn is bigger and better then the first 2, what happens an actual expansion, i.e. shivering isles type game is released, how will you separate the big plug ins from small plug ins from actually expansions?--Lord.Baal (talk) 04:24, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

If you would like to specifically comment on the sidebar, then we have an ongoing discussion on the Community Portal about it. I've proposed a number of changes that should address the issues that have been brought up here, so feel free to comment on them. As for how we divide up namespaces, it's not as illogical as you make it seem. For one thing, Bethesda is not always consistent with their terminology, and their name for DLC doesn't always reflect it's scope (is Horse Armor really on the same scale as Dragonborn?) Because of this, we have to make arbitrary decisions. We've decided on the criteria that in order for DLC to get its own namespace, it needs to add a significant separate world to the game. Dawnguard, for instance, only adds a handful of new locations and two worldspaces, the Forgotten Vale and the Soul Cairn, neither of which add many quests or are significant outside of one major quest. Dragonborn, however, is on roughly the same level as Bloodmoon. It adds a large worldspace completely separate from Skyrim, dozens of unique quests, dozens of dungeons, and whole new classes of enemies. • JA^T 07:45, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

its pretty simple of how to name them to keep them how u like, use the location, as it seems that is the factor used more then anything when deciding what goes on the sidebar as its own item and what gets a name space, so you could have skyrim, skyrim and skyrim, solstiem(sp?)

same with oblivion have the in dlc's in oblivion vs in shivering isles. i have to say its amusing to compare the horse armor which todd howard basically said he regrets making with the largest add on to date for skyrim. the biggest difference between the old games and new is that for it to be a real expansion it was its own game you bought seperatly, such as KOTN or shivering isles, bloodmoon/tribunal. where the obilivion dlc's where meant to be very small add ons. in skyrim there replacing buying a separate game with add ons and i would have to agree that dragonborn would rise to the level of a seperate expansion although you should rename it such or make modifications, as of now you have a drop down menu for offical plugins that doesnt include all of the official plugins and no the pages make no distinction, such as official plugin (minor dlc) (major dlc) (expansion). this would make it clear why they are not treated equal. last point ill bring up again, which ill go to that link u posted, ease of use should be the most important factor, the sidebar is there to make it easy to navigate, when i click the skyrim bar its fair to assume i would like the links to each dlc right away once i have chosen skyrim as the game i am interested in.--Lord.Baal (talk) 08:52, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

(←) Let me get this straight: you complain that navigating the new side-bar is not easy because finding DLCs require one more click? Additionaly, you can't blame UESP for the growing disappearance of games on a physical support (i.e. DVDs). At the time Bloodmoon, Tribunal, KotN and Shivering Isles were released, most people didn't have incredible connections, downloading such a file would have taken hours or even days for some; going to the store is much quicker. Also, internet security wasnt't really at its best a few years ago. Nowadays, you can download 1GB in a few minutes (you barely have the time to move from your chair that it's already done) and Steam allows for a safe service. Many people downloaded Skyrim instead of buying it in store, does it mean it's not a true game? Elakyn (talk) 10:45, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

ill just answer with a simple question, why should the first official plugin be treated so much differently from the 3rd official plugin, other that it happens to be on a different island. the point you missed was that every single thing bethesda releases is different in size and the wiki uses what i would consider an arbitrary scale to decide how to organize things, i see no reason why dawnguard shouldnt get its own namespace and its own link under skyrim. with that many new quests and areas, sure you can fit it in the skyrim area but it wouldnt be that hard to fit all of dragonborn as well if you wanted to--Lord.Baal (talk) 04:28, 25 March 2013 (GMT)

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