UESPWiki:Archive/CP Pronounciation Project

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Pronunciation Project

Hey guys, This is Playjex here, and I wanted to know if you would be willing to give me feedback, on this new project I'm working on. I will leave a pronunciation key next to any NPC's name. Would it help? Will you help me?

Sincerely, user:Playjex

I think it's a good idea. I'd considered doing that but I can never get my head around the various pronunciation systems. It would probably be best to modify the NPC Summary template so it appears in the same way on all relevant pages. --Rpeh^Talk 12:52, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

I'm cool with it, but I agree that it needs to be uniform on all pages (as in they should all look the same and should all use the same system). Also, I think that if names are pronouced more than one way in the game, that should be represented as well. Umbra, for example, is pronounced both "Um-bruh" and "Oom-bruh" in the game, depending who you talk to. I'm willing to work with you to help decide on a format and a system, as well as checking how names are pronounced in-game. --Eshe 14:09, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

I hear the distant drumbeats of pronunciation wars. Long pages of discussion over whether it's "Um-bruh" or "Oom-bruh" and which games said it which way, and maybe that was just a regional accent, and UK English vs. US English pronunciation. (Of course, since many words in lore have only been introduced through text, determining 'proper' pronunciation may be nearly impossible.) Might be best to not go there. --Wrye 15:30, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

I'll ask my reliable resource about this situation. He works for Bethesda so yeah. Playjex

Wrye's got a point. It's a neat idea, but it really might be more effort than it's worth. Maybe for now we should concentrate on more essential projects. --Eshe 16:13, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

As I mentionned when you asked Nephele about this, it might be worth doing in cases where the name is actually pronounced in-game, but as Wrye said, there are numerous cases where even the games are not consistant with themselves on pronunciation. ("SHAY-oh-GO-rath" vs. "SHEG-oh-RATH" for "Sheogorath" for prominent example - both pronunciations were used in Morrowind.) If you feel up to it, go ahead, but it's bound to cause some disagreement in many cases, so I'd say stick to those that are verifiable - and maybe even state where you got the information so other people can confirm it. (Inside sources at Bethesda may not be the best idea, since most of us can't confirm that. Better to stick to the games themselves. Not to mention that just because somebody works for the developer doesn't mean they even know the correct pronunciation - I refer you again to the inconsistancies within the games themselves.)

As for changing the NPC Summary template, I wouldn't recommend it. It's not a major enough project to call for changing of that template. Since it's used on so many pages and is such a complex template, every even minor change to it essentially makes the site's server go completely unresponsive for about 10-15 minutes. Thus we try to avoid making unnecessary changes, because it causes the site to go temporarily offline every time. I'd add it to the article text if anywhere, like right after the name in parentheses. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 19:28, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Okay, I'll do that. - Playjex

For the record, now that I've seen it (the Millona Umbranox page), it seems very distracting. --Eshe 21:01, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Agreed. Seems, well... anal. I think that at some point, you can push the encyclopedic documentation of a fictional world too far -- and this may have gone past that point. Probably a matter of taste, and to be fair, I rarely visit those pages. --Wrye 22:44, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

I didn't realise changing the templates kills the server but I'll stick with what I said about putting it on the NPC template; it'd be out of the way over there. I'd also like to say that anything that seems anal to a member of this site should be setting off alarms all over the world! --Rpeh^Talk 00:32, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

It doesn't usually. This particular template, however, is unusually complex and used on a LOT of pages. We might talk to Nephele about maybe taking a look at it (it's beyond my meager templating skills at this time) and maybe posting the change during the early morning hours when not too many people are trying to visit the site. (I might be able to figure it out by trial and error, but given that every trial would bring the site down for 10 minutes, I'd rather give it to somebody who can hopefully get it right the first time.) --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 00:48, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

If we had graphical avatars on this site, hers would be wearing a red cape... Okay, I was originally in favour of this idea but I agree that the way it's been done is very distracting. If it can be done in the template without killing the site, then I'd support that; otherwise it might be best to get rid of it. As far as British vs American pronunciation is concerned, it's one time when we Brits win given that both emperors in the game are British :-) --Rpeh^Talk 09:39, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

I'm pretty sure the voice-overs in the US and UK versions of the game are the same, so there's no difference in pronunciation of anything. Obviously, for the non-English language versions, there may be differences, but we're not really that concerned about those on this site. (Given the site is in English, it's to be assumed the majority of our visitors have one or the other English-language version of the game.) --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 13:02, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

I could add a new parameter to the NPC Summary template, although a few details on what exactly is wanted need to be sorted out first. The one other place where I'm aware of pronunciations being added to words is in the Lore:Dictionary section. So I'd suggest for consistency that a similar format be used here, namely square brackets, italicized, and smaller font. If everyone's OK with that, it just leaves the question of where in the infobox to display it. I'd suggest within the first box of the infobox, on a new line under the NPC's name. So the top of Countess Millona Umbranox's box would then look like:

Countess Millona Umbranox 0000A288 [Mihl-ona Um-brah-nox OR Mihl-ona Oom-brah-nox]
Home City	Anvil

Or for Dairihill:

Dairihill 0000A289 [Dare-eh-hil]
Home City	Anvil

In terms of the project itself, it's hard to come up with objective criteria for what should or should not be on the site, other than the basic criteria such as being Elder Scrolls-related and verifiable. As long as there is someone who thinks it's useful information and is willing to do the work necessary to add the information to the site, that's what matters, IMO.

However, I will echo the concerns about making sure that the information is verifiable. Some pronunciations are provided in the construction set, in the dialogue notes (the "REC " record), for example, '-- pronunciation -- should be "MUR-mih-donn"' or '"Bjalfi" is pronounced "Yall-Fee"'. I'd consider those pronunciations to be definitive. Going by pronunciations used by the voice actors is less reliable, however. There are many cases where the dialogue notes say things like 'mispronounced Agronak' or 'Mahei = ma HAI [good performance, but doesn't match with Mahei's pronunciation of his own name]'. So I'd recommend in-game pronunciations be used with caution, and only if the dialogue notes have been checked to confirm that there weren't any problems with that recording. --Nephele^Talk 12:37, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

Okay, if we can make it look like that, I'm in. The information is there for anyone who wants it, but it's out of the way for those who don't. Nice. --Eshe 13:17, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

Since right now is one of those windows when the site is less busy (and with it being the start of the weekend there won't be any better chance until Monday), I've gone ahead and implemented the change. The format can still be tweaked later if there are suggestions, but in the meantime some progress can be made. So for anyone who wants to add prononuncations, add "|pron=..." to the NPC Summary. I've edited Countess Millona Umbranox, Dairihill, and Umbra's pages as examples. --Nephele^Talk 01:58, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

Sounds good guys... so far. I REALLY don't want to mess up the servers or anything, but I'll contribute being the one that mentioned it. Wait for Monday for new updates. Thank you. --Playjex 30 June

Well, the change is done, and had far less effect on the server than previous changes to that template have had. I wonder if maybe some server upgrades since then have made a difference there, or if Nephele's choice of timing during off-peak hours was the deciding factor. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 13:02, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

The server was still pretty much unavailable for 10+ minutes after each of the saves I made. But I made sure that the server was only at ~25% capacity when I made the changes, so there was less of a backlog of outstanding requests that needed to be dealt with after the fact. --Nephele^Talk 14:03, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

Okay, it is now Monday. Nephele andTheRealLurlock, since you are both administrators of this site, and that you both tested and tried this "Project", would you say that we can do it, or that it jams up the server too much and it is disqualified of ever being possible? I hope we can have more test runs with this, but I would have to be taught how to insert the pronunciations into the summary. But I would use the "|pron=". Thanks. --Playjex

Playjex, what caused the server slow down was changing the NPC template, not the actual pronunciation edits. To insert pronunciations into summarys, simply put the |pron= after the |id= in the NPC Summary. --Ratwar 12:02, 1 July 2007 (EDT)