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UESPWiki talk:Morrowind Redesign Project/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past UESPWiki talk:Morrowind Redesign Project discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Category Scheme

The next thing I'll need to do with the category system is the Morrowind section. Since my project crosses into the domain of this one, I want to work with you all to make a good category scheme for Morrowind. My goal is to group similar pages together in a way that is helpful to the navigator. If there are too many pages in a category, I would like to divide it up. If there are too few, then I would like to merge it into another category or place the pages in the parent category. It's okay if we have some miscellaneous pages in Category:Morrowind; we don't need to force those pages into a category.

With that being said, here is my current plan for categorization:

  • Morrowind
    • Morrowind Quests
      • Morrowind Main Quest
      • Morrowind Fighters Guild Quests
      • Morrowind Mages Guild Quests
      • Morrowind Theives Guild Quests
      • Morrowind Temple Quests
      • Morrowind Morag Tong Quests
      • Morrowind Imperial Cult Quests
      • Morrowind Imperial Legion Quests
      • House Hlaalu Quests
      • House Redoran Quests
      • House Telvanni Quests
    • Morrowind Gameplay (For guides like Morrowind:Alchemy)
    • People in Morrowind (Possibly redirect Morrowind People here.)
      • Altmers in Morrowind
      • Argonians in Morrowind
      • Bosmer in Morrowind
      • Breton in Morrowind
      • Dunmers in Morrowind
      • Imperials in Morrowind
      • Khajiiti in Morrowind
      • Nords in Morrowind
      • Orcs in Morrowind
  • Redguard
    • Places in Morrowind (Possibly redirect Morrowind Places here.)
      • Places in Ascadian Isles
      • Places in Ashlands
      • Places in Azura's Coast
      • Places in Bitter Coast
      • Places in Grazelands
      • Places in Molag Amur
      • Places in Red Mountain
      • Places in Sheogorad
      • Places in West Gash
    • Factions in Morrowind (Possibly redirect Morrowind Factions here.)
    • Tribunal Expansion (Possibly just simply Tribunal)
      • Tribunal Quests
        • Tribunal Main Quest
    • Bloodmoon Expansion (Possibly just simply Bloodmoon)
      • Tribunal Quests
        • Tribunal Main Quest

Does this look good the way it is, or does it need more adjustments? Keep in mind that I can always make adjustments during or after the changes have been made. --Aristeo | Talk 13:25, 9 November 2006 (EST)

I'd personally like to take some time to mull this one over a little...is there a date you'd like to get started on this?--Hoggwild5 17:38, 9 November 2006 (EST)
Not really. Take your time. --Aristeo | Talk 17:49, 9 November 2006 (EST)
Well, Tribunal already has a Tribunal-Quests category --Ratwar 18:25, 9 November 2006 (EST)
Couple of things: 1) You may want to add categories to each of the faction's quests, otherwise your Morrowind Quests category will be huge; 2) I beleive your Morrowind Gameplay is now Morrowind-Hints; 3) You may also want to split the Places in Morrowind category. --DrPhoton 03:45, 10 November 2006 (EST)
The Morrowind People category is going to get huge, with approximately 13-1400 named NPCs that have significant roles; we may want to look at breaking this down further (I think we're currently breaking it by race?). — Unsigned comment by Hoggwild5 (talk • contribs)
I wanted to make the Alchemy pages (Morrowind, Tribunal, and Bloodmoon) similar, but I find their templates and categories not well organized. For example, Morrowind has a "Morrowind-Hints" category, which Alchemy is ascribed to, although it is in the "Misc" section. Bloodmoon has a similar thing, but Tribunal does not. is this because the category does not exist? On a side note, should Alchemy be under a "Hints" cagetory, or the game's category itself? Sstasino 15:34, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Tribunal does have a Tribunal-Hints Category, [1]. As for whether or not the Alchemy page should be in there, I think that we should follow the precident set by Morrowind (and yes, I realize that Oblivion has it in a different category.)--Ratwar 15:45, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Huh. I tried that a couple times, and it kept coming up as a missing page. Must have been a typo, like Tribunal_Hints, or something. Now it looks better. Thanks! Sstasino 16:01, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Oh, and while I'm asking, what happened to the Tribunal Trail template? Sstasino 15:34, 30 November 2006 (EST)
I'm not sure I understand the question....can you be a little more specific? Thanks! --Hoggwild5 16:53, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Location Pages

How are we going to handle locations that occur inside towns? Specifically, I just came accross the article, Tribunal:The Winged Guar, which is not currently linked to anything, and has lee information on the Winged Guar than the Godsreach page. I don't want to go around proposing to delete all these pages only to add them back in a month or two. --Ratwar 10:07, 10 November 2006 (EST)

My personal opinion is that if the location is significant enough to warrant mention (and I think Winged Guar is, since if I remember right it's the location of a couple of quests), then it should be mentioned in the game namespace and categorized in this case under Tribunal-Places. I don't think that the Winged Guar warrants space in the Tamriel section.--Hoggwild5 03:35, 13 November 2006 (EST)

"Relevant NPCs"

Question: In Morrowind, there are many NPCs who offer training or services, but who are hostile when you first meet them. You cannot receive their services without first casting a Calm spell on them, so as far as you can tell on first meeting them, they are just random bandits. Should these be considered "Relevant"? I can think of only a few cases where such a character deserves special mention - Qorwynn, the Master Trainer for Enchant in Indoranyon, and the merchants in each of the three vampire strongholds who will deal with you only if you are also a vampire in their clan. The rest of them are not really worthy of note, I think. Thoughts? --TheRealLurlock Talk 11:46, 20 November 2006 (EST)

I think if they offer services, then it's relevant to mention them, even if you have to calm them in order to receive those services. Just my opinion...others may feel differently.--Hoggwild5 11:53, 20 November 2006 (EST)
Whichever - I'm just trying to save a bit of work here. I figure if a character is hostile to you, and is not related to any quest or otherwise unique (like Qorwynn), then they're just not important enough to deserve their own page. I mean, you can leave them on the trainer pages, just for reference, but there's not much else to say about them, really. Maybe you'll feel differently after doing about 700 of these pages and realizing you're only half-way done with it... Anyhow, I at least wouldn't give them priority. Get the friendly people and quest specific ones done first. --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:28, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Follow up Question: There's several NPCs listed on the Morrowind:Rare Items page. I'm not sure if they're relevant or not, but should we consider them relevant just because they have a specific type off often sought equipment?--Ratwar 01:45, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Pause and Cleanup Locations

There are a lot of people involved in revamping the location pages, which is making the work real fast. However, due to the same reason, I noticed that the pages have slightly different formats, e.g. Morrowind:Addadshashanammu and Morrowind:Ashalmawia differ in how the Related Quests is written and in what is put under the Notes heading. There are also differences in how the maps are created. Maybe we should pause a little, look back, agree on a uniform format and style and content, clean up all what we have done, and then continue. What do you think? --DrPhoton 04:01, 22 November 2006 (EST)

I've noticed the differences as well, and I've been attempting to clean those up as I upload and link the interior maps for the different locations. I've been personally using a guideline to try to keep some consistency with the pages:
  • Introduction -- brief description of the type of dungeon (shrine, egg mine, cave, etc), location of the cave, ruin or shrine; general directions to the dungeon (i.e. southwest of Molag Mar, east of Caldera, between Balmora and Pelagiad, etc); brief description of the interior (partially submerged, has 3 major chambers, has 4 levels, etc.); a brief description of the number and type of creatures and NPCs you can expect to encounter; high level description of loot available (mentioning any rare, significant or quest related items); identification of cursed items on daedric altars.
  • NPC listing -- list of NPCs in the dungeon, including demographic info and faction info, and any significant comments (training skills, merchant skills, rare or quest-related possessions such as Ebony armor or weapons, rare enchanted weapons, hard-to-find lockpicks and probes, etc.)
  • Related Quests -- name of the quest linked to the quest page.
  • Notes -- more detailed description of the type of loot found in the dungeon (alchemical ingredients, sundry items, minor types of armor and weapons, etc); name and type of skills books; things of note about NPCs not included in NPC table; location and contents of locked containers; notation of keys in the dungeon, etc.
I've been removing the cleanup tags from the location pages when I think they meet this criteria, both from a content and a format perspective.
If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. --Hoggwild5 16:52, 22 November 2006 (EST)
I like this format very much. I would include in the Introduction some information on the related quests (a writ for the Morag Tong brings you here to kill John Smith) and other things of note (like secret rooms, hiden door activators, etc.). Should put this in the main page for everyone. --DrPhoton 03:28, 23 November 2006 (EST)
Done! Sorry that took so long...I was out of town for the holidays. --Hoggwild5 01:37, 29 November 2006 (EST)

Using "Related Quests" and "NPCs" headings on location pages

I had been including headings for "Related Quests" and "NPCs" on all of the location pages, even when there are no related quests or NPCs for a particular location; however, I've noticed that others have been removing these headings under the pretense of not needing them if there are no quests or NPCs. I disagree with removing these headings for the following reasons:

  • Since there are many people involved in creating locations, this gives peer reviewers the ability to quickly assess that these items were indeed checked and the determination was made that there were none for this location, rather than they were omitted because the original author didn't know there were any.
  • Having the headings on the pages lets the reader see at a glance that there are no NPCs or Related quests for that location, rather than having to stop and read the page to make that determination. This is even more significant if a reader is not familiar with the format we have been using on the location pages.

Comments and discussion would be welcome here.--Hoggwild5 16:58, 22 November 2006 (EST)

Sorry, I am to blame for this. I deleted them because I didn't see their purpose and wanted the pages to be as clean as possible. The first point you mention is easily acomplished by the use of the cleanup and stub templates we have. The second point is arguable, but I'm happy to go with the majority. --DrPhoton 03:39, 23 November 2006 (EST)

Alchemy Ingredients From Expansions

I dumped the raw lists, and formatted them on my User Page, but my question is more about where their permanent home should be.

It makes sense to put all the Alchemy ingredients together for a player who has both expansions, or GOTY, but for someone who just has Morrowind, it might be a slight annoyance.

My suggestion would be to integrate them into the Morrowind:Alchemy page and perhaps boldface or italics them, or simply * note them to say they are found only in the expansions.

Comments? Sstasino 15:31, 29 November 2006 (EST)

I think perhaps these deserve their own page in the respective Expansion namespace, similar to what we have in Morrowind. Our plan is to add the NPCs and Locations specific to the expansions to the Expansion namespaces as well. You might want to leave a message on Ratwar's talk page; he's been doing alot of work on the Morrowind expansions, and he may have some thoughts as well. I don't know how often he's checking the project page, and he's going through finals right now so it may take him a little while to get back with you.--Hoggwild5 22:37, 29 November 2006 (EST)
Well, from what I can tell, your arguments for having just one Alchemy ingredients page would be no different than the argument for having something like just one quest page. I say seperate pages with links to each other. --Ratwar 23:40, 29 November 2006 (EST)
Ok. Will do. I guess I was thinking of it more from a usability issue, as opposed to an organizational issue. For example, it is easier to look at one table and find all the ingredients that will give the Restore Magicka effect to plan a potion, than to reference 3 tables. This is unlike quests, since they don't interract this way. Sstasino 00:41, 30 November 2006 (EST)
From the stand point of a GotY or Expansion owner, it would be better to do it the way you describe, but I think it would cause confusion for Morrowind only players. Any notation we could use on the page would have to be explained, and if someone misses the explanation, it would be confusing. In my opinion, useability for one group should not confuse another. Anyways, it is good to finally have that stuff on the wiki. --Ratwar 01:14, 30 November 2006 (EST)
I would like to see seperate pages for each effect, in addition to having seperate pages for each ingredient. Each page would then list a description of the effect and the potential ingredients used to create it. Having one or more tables of ingredients is useful as a reference, but more often I think users would come looking to plan a specific potion, and having a seperate page for each would be much easier than going through the tables, no matter if there's three tables or just one. I've mused about this a bit on my talk page too. -- Isak 14:13, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Reading Nephele's comment on your talk page, I began to look at what is there for Oblivion wrt Alchemy. Wow. Nice stuff. Is that the direction we want to go in? Sstasino 15:55, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Having looked at it a bit more now, I'd definitely say yes. The two cross-linked tables, and the seperate pages for each Magic Effect works brilliantly for me. Isak 16:24, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Additional question - Does anyone know of a tool that can strip the .tga files into .jpg for the ingredient pictures? I'm thinking there must have been something like that used to create all the little pictures at Morrowind:Alchemy. Sstasino 13:34, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Some image editors can do that straight away. Paint Shop Pro, for example. If you haven't got that or other similar editors, I can do it for you - but you need to point me to the correct .tga files, as I can only find the opening splash screens and a few others. Are the ingredients stored in some library file? Isak 17:13, 1 December 2006 (EST)
Yeah, sorry. I wasn't very clear... The ingredients are stored in the .bsa file. (ie, Tribunal.bsa) After finding a tool to unpack that, I had the correct directories for the icons. But they are stored in .dds format. I was referring to some bit of information I remember about being able to strip the .tga icon file from the .dds, which I could then convert to a .jpg for the site. I was able to find a suitable tool that worked for some, but for a certain number of the Tribunal ones they are not coming out correctly. I need help with those. Somehow, they won't even display correctly in my Construction Set anymore, so I really goofed something up. Just look at Tribunal:Ingredients, and if you can get images for the ones that are missing, I would be grateful. --Sstasino 23:54, 1 December 2006 (EST)
Ah, ok. I'm using DXTBmp for that with Civ4, and I think it should work for Morrowind too. Haven't got time to test though as my bus leaves for work in 5 minutes. Isak 03:23, 2 December 2006 (EST)
That tool works great. Thanks! Problem solved. --Sstasino 14:04, 2 December 2006 (EST)

Maps for Quests and Locations

I propose that maps be included in the quest pages, similar to those of the main quest. Also, we could add maps for each of the locations in the places section. --DrPhoton 14:27, 8 November 2006 (EST)

I like this idea as well. I know that TheRealLurlock has been adding maps to some of the Morrowind pages, but I think the process involves more work than the Oblivion pages due to differences in the CS for the two games. Unfortunately, at this time my regular computer is off for repairs, and the one I'm currently using doesn't have enough oomph to actually run the game program (it barely loads the CS for Morrowind, and won't load the CS for Oblivion at all), so I'm of limited help here right now. If you'd like to take this on, add it as a bullet item to the Quests and Locations project description on the main article page so we can make sure they get added to all locations. --Hoggwild5 14:36, 8 November 2006 (EST)
I changed the map of Addamasartus to a thumbnail floating on the right. If you all like it, we can make it part of the style sheet. --DrPhoton 03:42, 14 November 2006 (EST)
I think that's fine; I've been following suit on the other location pages. Can you insert more than one image in a style sheet template? Some of the locations have multiple levels, and will have more than one map. --Hoggwild5 11:55, 20 November 2006 (EST)
I don't think you can do that, but i'm not shure. Probably the best thing is to combine the maps as e.g. Ilunibi.jpg. --DrPhoton 04:15, 21 November 2006 (EST)
The problem with that is some of the locations are vertical; the levels are stacked on top of each other, so it's difficult (if not impossible) to create a two-dimensional map of a three dimensional location. (See Ald Sotha for an example)--Hoggwild5 09:06, 21 November 2006 (EST)
What I meant is that you can join the different maps symbolically with a line (or symbols when lines are not appropriate) where a connection exists, like in Ilunibi.jpg. --DrPhoton 04:14, 22 November 2006 (EST)
Gotcha! I'll try to do that going forward --Hoggwild5 04:44, 22 November 2006 (EST)

I have currently seen many location maps being uploaded. Great! The problem is that they have different styles, like the color of the fonts, the background, etc. I think we should unify the style now that there aren't too many uploaded yet, otherwise it will be too late. --DrPhoton 03:36, 21 November 2006 (EST)

Alot of these maps have been created by me, and the best way I could come up to make them was through screenshots of the maps of the different locations. The problem is that the game is inconsistent in applying the backgrounds to the maps; depending on the type of location, the background that is being used in-game is different. Plus, when I'm adjusting the coloring to brighten up the map to make it more visible, the background changes color. I don't have the software that makes cutting and pasting these mape easy (I'm using HP Photosmart to crop and then adjust the images, and Microsoft Paint to make minor adjustments and to label the maps). I'd love any suggestions you might have on this. --Hoggwild5 09:06, 21 November 2006 (EST)
Many photo editing software have a "magic wand" crop tool that will allow you to crop out the background and put one of your own, e.g. black. I tried getting images from the CS, but is not good because whatever is on the ceiling obstructs the location. I wander if there is any console command to extract these maps, like there is for the exterior maps... The other thing is the difference in resolution and font color and style. That is something that is added and could be done in a uniform way. --DrPhoton 04:14, 22 November 2006 (EST)
I downloaded GIMP today, and am going through the painful process of learning how to use it. I uploaded one image,Band Egg Mine today that I used GIMP to clean...do you think this looks better? This image originally had a mottled grey background. (Quite a learning curve with this software....)
The console command is not available to my knowledge....I tried all of the mapping console commands I could find for the Morrowind CS, and neither of them generated internal maps (got some nice external maps, though). If you know of an undocumented command that creates internal maps, I would love to know what it is -- editing these maps from screenshots is painful, and makes it difficult to keep the font sizes consistent because the cropped images from the screenshots are all different sizes, resulting in what looks like different sized fonts.
For some of the locations, there were existing maps on the old UESP site, and I pulled them over to use here until we could come up with something better. Not many, mind you, but there were a few. --Hoggwild5 04:44, 22 November 2006 (EST)
Band Egg Mine looks good, though the text "Band Egg Mine" looks blury (?). --DrPhoton 08:23, 22 November 2006 (EST)
Well, I thought that too....and I asked Aristeo to take a look at it after I uploaded it and he thought it looked OK. I'm not sure why the text looks blurry on this one, but I'll work on the text and see if I can figure out what's going on. I used GIMP to label that map instead of Microsoft Paint, so it may be a setting in GIMP that I need to adjust.--Hoggwild5 15:45, 22 November 2006 (EST)
Very helpful Console command for map making: TFOW (Toggle Fog Of War). This one will make your map-making life much easier. Check it out. Also, I agree about some kind of guidance on maps. I added a bunch to Tribunal, later to find they weren't needed, nor did they match. Also, what warrants a note on the map as opposed to a note on the page? (notes in maps are not searchable)
Also, what about city maps? I see many pages needing images, but what kind of image is preferred? I am working on images Godsreach and The Great Bazaar areas in Mournhold, but I hesitate to post them, wondering if a map of these sections are unnecessary? Sstasino 14:19, 22 November 2006 (EST)
Thanks for pointing that one out. I've actually been using that one to make the screenshot maps that I currently have (I've taken screenshots of all the interior maps of the dungeons, shrines and ruins). Oblivion has a feature where you can export the map from the construction set instead of using screenshot to make an internal map, and I haven't been able to find a similar feature in the Morrowind Construction set.
I believe Lurlock is working on maps of the city of Mournhold; in fact, he may have already uploaded them (I'm pretty sure he's done the maps because he was commenting on the fact that the maps for the different parts of the city don't always line up).

The NeedsImage flag is not just for maps, though...screenshots of quest-related characters or activities (like the battle in the Plaza Brandizi Dorom, or a snapshot of The Missing Hand) are needed too for alot of the quest pages. So, feel free to get out your camera and snap away! Just make sure you crop the screenshot to reduce the size of the picture when you can, and convert it to a .jpg format before you upload it. --Hoggwild5 16:04, 22 November 2006 (EST)

Naming Convention

I'm noticing that several different people are uploading maps and using different naming conventions. I think we should try to establish a consistant convention before we do too many more of these. (And delete and re-upload those that use the wrong names, so as to avoid confusion for future editors.) My proposal is the same as the convention I used when uploading all the Oblivion maps:

MW-Map-LocationName.jpg

For maps added by Tribunal or Bloodmoon, you'd change the "MW" to "TR" or "BM" as appropriate. I say it's better to get this settled while we're still in the early 'A's than to wait until half the maps are uploaded with all sorts of different names. --TheRealLurlock Talk 13:20, 4 December 2006 (EST)

NPC Templates and Content

As the criteria for selecting whether an NPC is relevant or not, includes whether or not services are offered, I've assumed that those services should be listed on the NPC pages too. On my first NPC page, for Baradras I've added Training as a seperate category for now, but does anyone have an opinion on how to lay-out a page for NPC's that offer several types of services, like: Spells & Training & Barter & Spellmaking. I haven't found a character with services listed yet, so before I go set up lots of pages with a format, it'd be nice to reach a consensus of sorts. Personally, I'd prefer each type of service listed in its own section. I've also added an empty Relevant Quests header. I saw the discussion on that topic, but it didn't seem like any agreement was made, so for now I've done as the project leader suggested. (I'm a good boy, really ;) ) -- Isak 19:14, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Yes, any services that the NPC offers should be listed on their page. On the few I've done, I just list the training skills in a separate sentence, and note any other services they offer in the paragraphic description. The only subheaders we have currently on the NPC page is "Related Quests"; however, we only have a few NPC pages currently, so I'm fine with adding a "Training" subheader too.
You also need to include the following on each NPC page: [[Category:Morrowind-''Race''|''NPC Name'']], replacing Race with the appropriate race, and NPC Name with the NPC's name. This is a category listing that allows us to group all the characters by race.--Hoggwild5 19:51, 1 December 2006 (EST)
Thanks, corrected the missing category. I'll go on with services as a seperate subheader. I'm thinking that for NPC's offering spells, it might be nice to list all spells available, and that would be neater in a seperate subheader anyway. But maybe I'm going overboard, so please let me know if I do. -- Isak 14:45, 2 December 2006 (EST)
Ironically, I have to change my view already, since my second NPC Ergnir the Smith offers Smith services, and I can't come up with a better heading than just plain 'Services'. I guess that for Spells and Training the seperate subheaders are still a good idea, but for the rest of the services, there's no need to seperate it. -- Isak 15:57, 2 December 2006 (EST)
As for the training section, I don't feel that it's necessary. Listing the training in sentence-form is just as informative, and much less wasteful of space. Plus, entering it in sentence-form allows you to easily include notes about special cases (like there being only 2 spear trainers in the game, or the Orc in Dagon Fel who is the highest trainer for 2 different skills, or any of the many trainers who are hostile when you first meet them, etc.)
Another question this brought up, though - I know we've decided to include all trainers, even if you have to cast Calm on them to get services, but what do we do for trainers who will only offer services to members of their own faction, when it's one that the player cannot join? Mainly, this came up with a couple of Camonna Tong operatives that offer training, but I'm pretty sure they'll refuse to talk to you, let alone train you, and even if you use the "get-naked" trick to talk to them, they'll probably still refuse service since you're not a Camonna Tong member and never will be. Thus, there's literally no way to get training from them without cheating. (Using the console to join the Camonna Tong or something.) I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a single Camonna Tong person in the game who will do any kind of business with you at all. Probably likewise for the Dark Brotherhood, and any other faction you can't join. Surely their services don't need to be mentionned if they're forever unavailable to the player no matter what? --TheRealLurlock Talk 16:09, 7 December 2006 (EST)
Personally, I find the list style more informative. It's much easier to quickly scan through the list of services when it's a list than when it's in a sentence. Space really isn't an issue on the NPC pages, given that none of these pages even take up a full browser screen. And I don't see why it's any more difficult to add extra notes when the information is in a list... add a sub-bullet, or add a comment in parentheses after the item. My two cents :) --Nephele 16:31, 7 December 2006 (EST)
Not surprisingly, I agree with Nephele. For the shorter sections (like training which will of course never have more than three items) I'm fine with the sentence-style, but for longer sections (like spells & transportation) we're probably going to have to use lists anyway, so just for the sake of keeping the format clean, I suggest using lists throughout. But 3 voices isn't really much to form a consensus from, so I hope other project contributors will add their opinions too. As for Camonna Tong and Dark Brotherhood, I agree that listing their services would be unnecessary if cheating is the only way to obtain them. Isak 15:50, 13 December 2006 (EST)

Pages in Tamriel Section

Hey, I've recently discovered a page in the Tamriel section (Lore:Sotha Sil) that has a Morrowind redesign tab on it. Are we extending our project into that realm as well?

I think JLE did that; he's been working on a number of the NPC pages, and has been expanding some of the Tamriel pages related to Morrowind, Bloodmoon and Tribunal characters (he did some work earlier on Vivec (god) and Almalexia). I think it's ok since the edits are related to TESIII. Let's give him a chance to finish what he started. --Hoggwild5 18:10, 4 December 2006 (EST)
Yeah, that was me. Just suggesting that the Almalexia and Sotha Sil pages, like Vivec, need an image. Unfortunately I don't know how to put images on the server, which is why I marked the page as needing it, in the hope that someone else associated with Morrowind would notice it and put pictures up for these two. Considering how much was written about Vivec the god (who had his own page, marked as a Tamriel page rather than a Morrowind one), I found it curiously lacking that so little was written about Almalexia and Sotha Sil. Almalexia, for example, was almost entirely described, not in her own right, but in terms of a completely different god - and not even a female mother-figure type of god(ess). So I decided to expand their entries into separate pages, given how much of a major part they play. And since Vivec's page was marked Tamriel, I decided to mark the Almalexia and Sotha Sil pages as Tamriel too... --JLE 23:33, 4 December 2006 (EST)

NPCs table style on Location pages

I think it would be better to use the "wikitable" class instead of the "greylapse" class for the NPCs table on Location pages. The "wikitable" class has centered headings and vertically centered rows, which makes the table look better, especially for rows with multiple lines. Have a look at Morrowind:Saturan to see how it looks with this class. --DrPhoton 03:40, 5 December 2006 (EST)

I think that's fine -- I started using "greylapse" for the tables because that's all I had seen used; wasn't aware there was a "wikitable" class available.--Hoggwild5 11:02, 5 December 2006 (EST)

Non-relevant NPCs

I have created an article under the Morrowind People category for all non-relevant NPCs to be listed. The article is Morrowind:Non-Relevant NPCs. I have currently placed the non-relevant NPCs from the Zainab Camp on this page. For now, the page will be organized by location, and the NPC names will be made linkable entries so links can be established on other pages within the wiki and linked to this page using the following entry:

[[Morrowind:Non-Relevant NPCs#NPC Name|NPC Name]]

replacing NPC Name with the actual NPC's name as listed on the page.

Please let me know if you have any questions! --Hoggwild5 10:40, 6 December 2006 (EST)

Is linking to these really necessary? See my comment on Morrowind Talk:Cave People. Seems to me that having dozens of links to the same page from the same place is just redundant. --TheRealLurlock Talk 16:12, 7 December 2006 (EST)
For now,let's link them. There's a very high likelihood that I will be reorganizing the Non-Relevant NPCs page in the future where it is organized by something other than location (perhaps by race), and if the cross links are already in existence, it will keep me from having to backtrace and fix links, or find unlinked NPCs.--Hoggwild5 04:18, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Delete Boat Homes?

The Morrowind:Boat Homes page has been nominated for deletion. I created the page with as much information as I knew, and it was a part of an early Morrowind redesign project that I undertook when I only had Morrowind to play. Unfortunately, nobody was there to help since Oblivion had taken off by that time, and everyone jumped to create that humongous portion of the site. Since then there have been no contributors (other than link/spelling fixes), and boat homes apparently never caught on :P. If this page is taking up way too much space or is desperately needed elsewhere (which I doubt), then I hesitantly support its deletion. However, if there's no reason to delete this other than because it is inactive, then I would definitely prefer it kept and that it just be given more attention, and see what happens then. So I'm asking for anyone a part of this redesign project to please comment on its deletion and its development here, on the page itself, or on its deletion page. --WerdnanoslenTalk 14:20, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Missing or incomplete information on a page is not a reason for deletion, it's a reason for improvement. Jadrax 14:21, 3 March 2007 (EST)
My thoughts exactly. --WerdnanoslenTalk 14:23, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Faction Members

First off, I should aplogize if the answers to my questions already exist somewhere--I took a brief look through the project pages and I didn't see anything. Anyway, I'm currently working on a table of House Telvanni members, and I noticed that the tables on the other two House pages are alphabetized by the NPC's location. Is there a reason for this? The reason I'm asking is because the table I've started is alphabetized by the NPC's name, which made the most immediate sense to me. If I should rearrange it according to the standards of the other pages, please let me know! Also, in the Construction Set, some of the NPC classes are listed as things like "Alchemist Service." Is this their actual class, or should I be looking somewhere else to find it? Thanks! --Eshe 21:36, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

I see no reason for why they would be alphabetized by NPC location. It actually sounds a little freakish to me for I've never heard of ANYTHING being alphebetized by an object/person's location. For now, let's stick with the "aphebetize by location", because it will take a while to switch the other 2 houses lists of NPC's around. Though, if you alphebetize the Telvanni by NPC name, me and a few others may participate by making the other 2 houses listed by name intead of location. I may be wrong by saying this so get another opinion. Thank you. --Playjex 22:29, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
I believe the reason why they are sorted by location is for the players to quickly find fellow members at a given location. This is particularly useful with the more secretive factions, e.g. the Thieves Guild or the Blades.
As for the classes, "Service" is just an added tag to group the NPCs of a certain class who offer services to the player, e.g. "Alchemist Service" groups all Alchemists selling ingredients and potions (I believe). --DrPhoton 03:51, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

I still have a few tables to go, but I'm taking a short break to start adding links to the tables that already exist. I just thought I'd mention here that I'm not 100% sure I'm going to get the standards for relevant NPCs right, but I'm going to try. I'm using this list of NPCs to see if a particular NPC has its own page; if so, I'll assume the NPC is considered relevant and add a link to the member table. I'll also add links to NPCs who provide services, whether their pages already exist or not. Anyway, that's my method, just in case I make a mess and somebody needs to understand what I was thinking ;). --Eshe 17:57, 30 July 2007 (EDT)

Hmm...upon closer examination, my logic seems extremely flawed. A lot of the blue links on that page just lead to redirects. I'm going to stick to linking the NPCs that provide services for now, unless somebody has a better suggestion. --Eshe 18:11, 30 July 2007 (EDT)

I've made the member tables sortable (an idea I stole from Zoriak's userpage). This should make the whole thing much more flexible, so people searching for members by location can easily do so, and people searching for a specific name or service can do the same. I will continue to alphabetize the tables by location as I make them, so the tables should still be sorted that way by default.

I was also wondering, since the tables were sorted by location in the first place, if it would be a good idea to linkify the locations in the table. I realize this would take up a lot of space and time, so I thought I would get some opinions first. Thanks! --Eshe 23:07, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

I would link locations, race and class. BTW, is there any way that the tables can appear sorted when you open a new page? Right now, the tables first appear unsorted and you have to click on one of the sorting icons to do any sorting. However, since the tables are written by location, they look as if they were sorted by that. But imagine someone adds another NPC at the end of the table; then it won't be sorted any more. --DrPhoton 03:35, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
The tables are all sorted by location each time I open the pages, and it should be that way for everyone else too. If this is not the case, we'll have to find some way to work it out. I'm not worried about people adding NPCs to the tables, since all of the data was pulled directly from the Construction Set and the only ones I left out were essentially pointless NPCs like guards, cattle, or NPCs that do not exist in the game. However, if somebody needs to add an NPC to the list, I should hope they would take the time to put the information in the correct location. If not, I'd be happy to move it myself, unless someone beats me to it ;). --Eshe 04:34, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
Yes, the tables are sorted, but only because they are written in a sorted way (if you look at the header icons, none of them appear to be sorted until you click on one of them). What I meant is if there is any way to make the table initially sorted (e.g. by NPC name), even if it is not sorted at the time of writing. This may not be particularly useful for these tables, but could be of use elsewhere in the site. I've been searching at MediaWiki, but haven't found any way to do this. --DrPhoton 08:36, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
I honestly have no idea. All I did was copy/paste class="wikitable sortable" from Zoriak's page because I thought it looked nifty and might be useful for these tables. As far as I can tell, the tables are initially sorted however they're written, unless there's some magical code out there that makes it otherwise. I admit I haven't looked to find one. It might be a good idea to ask Zoriak, but he(?) doesn't seem to have been around much lately. I'll poke around and see what information I can find, but I doubt I'll have much more luck than you did. Sorry, I know I'm not much help. Hopefully something will turn up! --Eshe 13:30, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure sortable tables always default to however they're written when you first open the page. Don't think there's any way around that, other than to manually re-order them the way you want them sorted on the page. Glad somebody found a legitimate use for the sortable tables though. (I discovered them on Wikipedia first - tried using them on Oblivion:Unique Items, but it seemed a little pointless there, since the charts are smaller.) --TheRealLurlock Talk 13:38, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

Cover Up

I have noticed, that on pages where there are NPC Templates in the Bloodmoon section the flags somehow get in the way. For example: on the page of Basks-In-The-Sun, I put a tag saying that it needs a picture, which it does, but it's covering up some of the NPC template. Is there any way to fix this? Please respond anybody. Thank You. Sincerely, Playjex 10:15, 30 July 2007 (EDT)

If you put the {{NeedsImage-mw}} tag before the {{NPC Summary}} one, you shouldn't get the problem. --RpehTalk 10:22, 30 July 2007 (EDT)
Okay, thank you very soo much. --Playjex 10:29, 30 July 2007 (EDT)
but wate, should I do the same with the "Stub" flag also like shown on Gamin Girith? --Playjex 10:32, 30 July 2007 (EDT)
Stub tags belong at the bottom of the page, see UESPWiki:Stubs. If you want to force the stub tag to be placed below the NPC Summary, enter
{{NewLine}}
{{stub-mw}}
--NepheleTalk 02:03, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

New Flag

This is only an idea Proposed but, I have noticed that many NPC's that have pages are just blank, with only an NPC template on there. Then I always see, "THIS NEEDS AN IMAGE AND IT'S A STUB" can't we make a flag that says something like "This page is entirely blank, PLEASE contribute anything you can to help. Thank You ---UESP Team" ? Because I see it ironic to have a blank page and calling it a "stub" how is it a stub if nothing is there at all? Like Olumba gro-Boglar. thanks. --Playjex 10:11, 6 September 2007 (EDT)

I dunno, I don't think two flags is all that much trouble. Plus, I think it's useful for people doing the images to be able to look (just) the Needs Image category and go to work. Same goes for people who are doing the write-ups about the characters. I suppose we could make one flag that puts the article into both categories, but I think it would be a little unnecessary. But that's just my opinion ;). Plus, a stub just means it's an incomplete article...so if there's nothing there, it still qualifies as a stub because it's incomplete. --Eshe 10:19, 6 September 2007 (EDT)
Yes maam. I'm still waiting for other opinions though... lol --Playjex 10:26, 6 September 2007 (EDT)
Well, I must say that I'm with Eshe. Having yet another flag to replace the other two which work well together and independently seems unnecessary. --DrPhoton 14:41, 6 September 2007 (EDT)
Okay, thank you both. --Playjex 17:54, 8 September 2007 (EDT)

Description Categories

Should we create categories for Morrowind /Description pages, like Category:Morrowind-Place Descriptions and Category:Morrowind-Quest Descriptions? I just noticed under Special:Uncategorizedpages that the majority of them are these /Description pages, but I wanted to check first to see if there was a reason these categories do not exist. --Eshe 17:27, 6 September 2007 (EDT)

We could, though it sounds like a tedious amount of work. You'd of course have to put it in <noinclude></noinclude> tags so that the category doesn't get transcluded onto the actual quest pages. Maybe we could petition NepheleBot to do this for us, unless you've got the patience to go and do them all... --TheRealLurlock Talk 17:35, 6 September 2007 (EDT)
It's not so much a question of patience as a question of time. It would certainly be faster if NepheleBot did it, but given enough time I could (and would) do them all myself. I'm not even really sure if it's an issue other than the fact that my semi-OCD was upset with the fact that Oblivion and Shivering Isles have these categories, but Morrowind and its expansions don't. If it's a pointless task, though, I guess I could forgive the existing system ;). --Eshe 17:44, 6 September 2007 (EDT)
The ideal solution would be to somehow code the site such that sub-pages (and Talk pages) do not show up in the Uncategorized Pages list. There's simply no reason for them to. But then, a lot of the Special pages have issues. For example, the "Fewest Revisions", "Most Revisions" and "Most Categories" pages all completely ignore any pages that aren't in the Main namespace. "Uncategorized Categories" lists pretty much everything BUT actual Category pages. "Short Pages" should really ignore sub-pages as well. "Random Page" is kind of useless, but it'd be slightly less so if it ignored Talk pages and sub-pages. We just have to kind of live with it, I guess, until Daveh can be convinced to make the necessary changes. --TheRealLurlock Talk 22:20, 6 September 2007 (EDT)
I agree, it would be really handy if those lists could be changed to include only pages that make sense. That would get rid of the vast amount of pages on the Uncategorized Pages as well as others. I personally use the Random Page feature a lot, particularly when I don't feel like working on a project and just want to do some grammar and link cleanup, but it would be much nicer if things like talk pages and book author pages didn't show up. I have no concept of how easy or possible it would be to make these changes, but if it's a realistic project, maybe we should ask Daveh to take a look at it. --Eshe 14:15, 7 September 2007 (EDT)
Nephele has already brought it to his attention, so if he wants to do anything about it, he'll do it when he has the time. For now, though, I would just ignore those pages, because there's not much we can do about them that wouldn't be a major job with very little benefit. (Yes, we could add noincluded categories to all the description subpages, but it's a lot of work, and what really would be the benefit to the site?) --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:44, 7 September 2007 (EDT)

NPC List on Location Pages

There are two groups of location pages with different formats for the NPC list, which should be homogenised. One group of pages list the NPCs as a bulletted list with links to the relevant NPCs and Non-Relevant NPCs (e.g. Ald Sotha). The other list NPCs in a table format with links only to relevant NPCs (e.g. Assernerairan). Personally, I prefer the latter because:

  1. It gives quick info about all occupants of the location.
  2. It doesn't need a separate page for non-relevant NPCs, which will grow and grow as it gets populated with all non-relevant NPCs.

What are your preferences? Any other suggestion on how we can list them? --DrPhoton 08:30, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

Oops, I just noticed this question after bringing up some similar questions at Morrowind talk:Non-Relevant NPCs#Longterm Plans for NPCs. It looks like our preferences are pretty similar: have tables listing NPCs on the place pages instead of having a mega-page at Non-Relevant NPCs. --NepheleTalk 23:44, 21 October 2007 (EDT)

Description Page Links

I've just noticed that the Description pages that exist so far seem to be the opposite of the Oblivion ones in link styles; ie, (place)/Description in Oblivion usually doesn't include links but (quest)/Description does - the Morrowind ones seem to be largely the reverse. Is this intentional or just the way things have evolved? I only ask because I was about to create several such pages... —Rpeh•T•C•E• 20:16, 30 December 2007 (EST)

I would say that both should have links where appropriate, whether on Morrowind or Oblivion pages. It's not a major enough issue that I'd recommend going through and adding links to all /Description pages that don't have them, but if you're creating new ones, or you have some other reason to edit an existing one, it would make sense to add a few links while you're at it. (Often, I find that since QuestLink's use the /Description pages and appear on NPC and location pages, that these end up just being links to the page you're already on, but in that case it just ends up being bold text, which doesn't really matter, I think.) --TheRealLurlock Talk 00:09, 31 December 2007 (EST)
Well, one problem has been that adding links to place/Description pages in Oblivion (as has been done a couple times now, then undone) is that then Oblivion:Places turns into an incredibly overcluttered page with hundreds of redundant links. I suspect that part of the difference in Morrowind is just that the analogous Morrowind page, namely Morrowind:Places, hasn't been changed to use place link templates and doesn't have a complete list of all places in the game; even the subpages (e.g., Morrowind:Mines, Morrowind:Caves) don't all use the place link template yet. My guess is that once those pages get updated to use place links (which really should be done eventually to prevent redundant and inconsistent descriptions), then there will be complaints about the links in the description pages :|
Quirky problems like this are one of the reasons I keep wondering whether there's a better way to do /Description pages, but the approaches I've come up with would end up requiring a major revamp of the whole /Description system. In the meantime, I'd guess it's probably best to just add any needed missing pages in whatever way seems most appropriate. --NepheleTalk 01:08, 31 December 2007 (EST)
That argument might have merit on actual article pages; too many links in a paragraph of text gives you the whole distracting "Christmas Tree" effect. But the Places pages are not articles. They're lists, tables of contents. Like the Category pages, they are a navigational tool, used to help you find articles. As such, it makes sense to me that you'd want all the important information (including links to relevant articles) shown on the page to aid in navigation. If Cave X is a destination for Quest Y, you can save the reader a click and a page-load by having the quest linked right on the Places page. I've even considered the possibility that the Places pages might be worked into tables, much like Tamriel:Books - one column for place name, one for description, one for related quests, and maybe one for type of creatures/NPCs found there. Not suggesting we do that right away, just a thought I'd had. --TheRealLurlock Talk 10:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)
The conclusion that Oblivion:Places is too cluttered if all the descriptions contain links has been reached a few separate times by multiple editors. See Oblivion Talk:Places#Redundant Links and then Oblivion Talk:Fort_Carmala/Description. So I'd say that, for the Oblivion pages at least, there should be a fairly extensive discussion before reconsidering that decision yet again. Not that this is the place for such a discussion (being a Morrowind-related page). I'm mainly just trying to point out that editors' previously expressed opinions on the subject shouldn't be overlooked. --NepheleTalk 13:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)

Can we remove "Needs Cleanup" templates?

Hello everyone, I'm new to the team, but I have been helping out. My question is, once we cleanup a page, are we allowed to remove the "Needs Cleanup" template on that page, or do we wait for the project leader to check out our editing and remove it himself? --Palos 01:30, 13 January 2008 (EST)

If you believe that all necessary cleanup has been done, go ahead and remove the tag :) If a patroller or other editor feels like there is more cleanup that needs to be done, then they'll put the tag back if necessary. It's generally best on the wiki when editors take the initiative to do tasks themselves; project leads and admins aren't really here to make unilateral decisions, but more just to provide guidance. --NepheleTalk 01:46, 13 January 2008 (EST)

Priority Images

Hi, fellow editors! I could use some help with the cleanup. I am on the xbox and a little handicapped with getting images myself.

Could we prioritize certain hight-traffic pages that are missing images? Thinking of Red Mountain, citadels, ordinator, Sanctus Shrine, quest images and such. Is there a way to cross-reference hit counts with the list of pages missing images/stubs? I know all need to get done eventually, but a few days of targeted image getting would make a huge impact on the usability of the Wiki and the overall impression on visitors.

Cheers, --Benould 03:46, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

This is a very good idea, though I don't think it's possible to crossreference these pages without a dedicated plug-in. Another way would be to go through the Main Quest pages and pages referenced therein. --DrPhoton 04:30, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
Oh, I ment hits on the Wiki web site, not in-game, but going through the list of missing images might be just as fast. Any volunteers to capture a few images? --Benould 05:25, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
I've been going through the "Pages Needing Images" list alphabetically, picking up those that I can (halfway through 'M' now). My big problem is that my character isn't too far advanced in the MQ, so I'm missing some requisite journal entries and such. I find it's faster for me to get screenshots of locations that I can get to easily, rather than entering codes to trigger quest stages when required.
But I agree with the idea that higher-traffic pages receiving priority could have a big impact on visitors' experience. Simply having a list of the more popular pages would help; any cross-referencing could be done manually. – KJR1012 Talk Email Contribs 06:14, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
There is a page (Special:Popularpages) that lists the most popular pages on the site. Not sure how you'd cross-reference that list to the pages needing images, though. --Gaebrial 06:44, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
By writing a little code :) There is now a list of pages needing images and their rank in the popularity index here. That's not necessarily all of them - if a page is lower than #5000 in the popularity charts, it won't be on there. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 09:27, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
Thanks, Rpeh! I won't presume to speak for Benould, but it seems like that's exactly what was requested. I must say, though, that the results are a little surprising (to me, at least). – KJR1012 Talk Email Contribs 13:40, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
Thanks , Rpeh, for the power of code! Is your sandbox a dynamic page that updates on-the-fly? Looks like there is something for everyone, high-level or not. Additionally, I'll make a sandbox on my page with places I noticed, later today. Thanks everyone for the input. A cookie for whoever gets all images for Morrowind:The Citadels of the Sixth House and its links... --Benould 14:07, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
Alas, it's static so I'll need to regenerate it at some point. That should keep you going for now though! –Rpeh•T•C•E• 14:47, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Can we move finished tasks to a completed section?

The page needs some updating, just so it is easier to see what still needs to be done and new editors can jump in. This would also gives a feeling of progress and accomplishment. ;) Does anyone have an overview? What about Bloodmon and Tribunal? --Benould•T•C 11:24, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

Fin Tags

Discussion moved from Morrowind_talk:Ice Blade of the Monarch (quest)

I noticed the removal of some fin tags in the quest IC27_Oracle_A. Although they aren't tagged as "Quest finished" in the CS, theres a script that causes the removal of this quest from "Active Quests" in the journal. Otherwise, those quests would remain unfinished for the rest of the game! - Game LordTalk|Contribs 08:30, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

We only put the fin tag on entries that have it in the CS. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 08:44, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
Mm, ok, although via a script could be argued as to be "in the CS", but if you insist, then you'll have to go through the entire main quest as well. I tried removing some of the incorrect ones there, but HMSVictory told me about the script, and that they should be there. Basically almost none of the main quests have the "finished" box taggged in the CS. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 08:48, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
If the quest is essentially "finished" in that it no longer appears in the "Active Quests" section of the journal, then there is no reason not to include the fin tag. Anyone who visits this site and does not know of the complications in the CS will, in all respects, consider the quest finished, and will therefore be more likely to become confused if they see final journal entries that don't have the tags. --HMSVictoryTalk 08:54, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
Another thing is that there a few inconsistencies in the House Hlaalu quests. Some use the script, and some the "finished" box. It's going to look really terrible if we tell our users that half of the quests are finishable and the other half not. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 08:57, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
We should always go by the CS data. If we start adding fin markers to entries where they're not present, it's just wrong. We'll end up with another argument like the one about the ranks of the various Dark Brotherhood people in Oblivion. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 09:00, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
How about we move this discussion to the Community Portal? Allow the other editors to speak their minds rather than just the three of us. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 09:02, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
Makes sense, but we'll also just end up confusing people. I'd rather be in the knowledge that if I recieve a certain journal entry then I don't need to worry about the particular quest anymore. I was a little puzzled myself a while ago when I noticed some quest pages didn't have any fin tags on their journal entries. --HMSVictoryTalk 09:05, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

(Outdent)And technically we are still being loyal to the CS. The command to lodge that quest as "Complete" is in the CS. It's just in a different place. Not displaying information because the CS adds that information in a peculiar way isn't really the purpose of the wiki. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 09:08, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

Put it on the CP then. Or on the MW Redesign talk page. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 09:23, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
What if in those special cases we used a footnote, so that instead of just fin, you'd see fin*, with a note explaining it below the chart? Seems like a good compromise to me. We already have notes like that for some quests added by plug-ins which don't have "Finished" tags because that feature was added by Tribunal and the plug-ins were never updated after the expansions came out. --TheRealLurlock Talk 11:03, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
I was actually thinking of a simliar thing, but that we have a yellow tick, with the colors explained in the quest notes. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 12:38, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
Are there really enough cases of this that a note needs to be added on EVERY quest page? I'd think that since these are the exception rather than the rule, the note should only appear on the pages where it's needed. As for the color of the check-mark - it really doesn't matter, but the green one we already have, and the simplest solution for right now is just to use it with an * after it, and footnotes wherever it's needed. But adding it to the MW Quest Stages Notes template or something just seems a bit excessive for something that's only going to be used in a small minority of cases. --TheRealLurlock Talk 13:06, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
It's not really a minority. Almost all the main quest, and around half the imperial cult, some of the mages guild, and I haven't even looked at the great houses yet. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 13:16, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

(outdent) Fin Tags are a visual reference for users to see at what stage a quest is finished in the journal. Real game supersedes CS, as per our definitions. If we have to, include a definition of the fin tag on the main quest pages, mentioning the two conditions as described above. My vote is to Undo Rpeh's Undo. --Benould•T•C 18:15, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

It's still a minority - I mean, we're talking about, what, a dozen quests? Two dozen? Out of over four hundred. Even if there's three dozen, it's still less than 10% of the quest pages. I'd say just add a small note under the chart on the pages where it's needed, no sense in confusing people on all the other pages as well. Just a little note that says "*Quest is completed via scripts, rather than using the standard finishing tags." With a fin* in the chart to indicate when this is the case, which in the vast majority of cases it won't be. --TheRealLurlock Talk 23:27, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
My other idea was to configure the Quest Notes template to be similar to the Wares Notes template. So that by typing in {{Quest Notes}} you would get the standard notes; but with {{Quest Notes|fin}}, an extra note, explaining these exceptions, would be added. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 05:44, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Easy enough to do, but the only problem with it is the note would end up being above the chart, while I personally think it's more appropriate to have it below the chart, but that's just my opinion. Honestly, I don't think it's that important to distinguish between standard and scripted finish tags, but if we're going to make the distinction, I'd say the note should be somewhat marginalized so as to avoid confusing newbie users who are unfamiliar with and probably don't care about the intricacies of the Construction Set. After all, in terms of gameplay, does it really matter whether the script is finished via a tag or via a script? The end result is exactly the same as far as the player is concerned, so it's only relevant to people who are looking at the tags in the CS. Thus, keeping it on the bottom makes more sense. (Plus, when you see an * in text, your natural instinct is to look down to find the associated footnote.) We can make a new Notes template for consistency, but I don't think it needs to be combined with the existing Quest Notes template. --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:56, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Could we get a final decision on this? The reason I'm slightly impatient is because this is on hold until I know how we're going to do this. From what I've gathered from the discussion I think we have the following opinions:
  • Rpeh - Note under table with explanation or different color ticks.
  • Benould - Note under table with explanation.
  • TheRealLurlock - Note under table with explanation.
  • Game Lord - Add fin tags without explanation, because readers don't care much about CS.
  • HMSVictory - Add fin tags without explanation, because readers don't care much about CS.
If I've got anyones opinion wrong, please don't hesitate to change it.
So, which is it gonna be? - Game LordTalk|Contribs 07:40, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
I only removed them because I understood that to be the policy. If they're going to be marked, they must be marked differently from standard fins or confusion will arise. A different color tick might help - adding a param to the fin tag could do that. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:10, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
I think the note under the table seems to be the most reasonable option at this point. I don't think a different color tick is really necessary. fin* gets the point across pretty clearly, and without the potential for confusion that could be caused by a different color. I think Game Lord and HMSVictory are correct that most people don't care how a quest is completed so long as it is completed, so using the same symbol for both cases makes the most sense. For those people that DO care, a small footnote indexed with an * will make the distinction. There's definitely no need to add it to the Quest Notes template, as that just adds needless confusion on the vast majority of quest pages where this is not an issue. A note included only on the places where it needs to be should be more than sufficient. --TheRealLurlock Talk 12:00, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

(Outdent)All right, someone hit me. I have now discovered that basically all my quests in my CS are closed off via a script. Doubtless this is once again caused by my german CS. I feel like a bit of an idiot, having kicked up all this fuss, only to discover that I can't do much anyway. I've decided to simply continue through my MW quest list, but only fix up the header (Rewards, abbrieviations etc.), as I have been doing already. What this of course means, is that another quite patient editor is going to have to go through all the quests again checking for whether Template:FN is needed. Is anyone up for it? If not, then I'll simply add it to the task list. Sorry once again. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 13:31, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

I think what Game Lord has being doing is completely correct, and I would do exactly the same in his position (albeit with less style and wit). As I have metnioned, we should be concise and accurate, so not including the fin tags and then blabbering on about the overisghts in the CS that few people will encounter and even fewer will worry about on every page just doesn't seem worth it. If we have to include a note, make it clear, short and sharp. Well, that's my opinion. Anyway, to summarise, I agree with Lurlock. --HMSVictoryTalk 13:35, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
Game Lord: Can you give a few examples of quests closed by scripts in your game? That way we can compare them to the standard English-language versions (I have the US version, not sure if the UK version is any different, so somebody else would have to check that) and see if there really is a difference - I can't think why there would be in this respect, but who knows? The other question is whether you've got the GotY edition (which includes both expansions) or whether you got the original and purchased the expansions separately, etc. This is relevant because the "Finished" tags did not exist prior to the Tribunal expansion, so things might be different if you're using an older copy. --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:52, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
Just to pick a few at random: FG_DeseleDebt, FG_KillBosses, HH_EscortMerchant, HT_Odirniran, IL_GiantNetch. But I can't actually find any that use the "Finished" tag. As for GotY I had the normal version, then installed the GotY version over it, because a friend gave it to me. Of course the thing is that the CS, might have simply been left as before (Although I can access Tribunal.esm and Bloodmoon.esm. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 15:01, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
All of those have "Finished" tags in my game. I think I see what might be going on - In order to see the "Finished" tags, you must load up one of the expansions in the CS. Load up either Tribunal or Bloodmoon (or both, doesn't matter), and then you should see the tags on the Morrowind quests. If that doesn't do it, then maybe it is the German version, but I highly doubt it, because that's the kind of thing that wouldn't really need to be changed just to translate the game into another language. --TheRealLurlock Talk 15:10, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
Nope, still nothing. At least not with Tribunal loaded. I can't load both together for some reason, but that's a different story. I'll try loading Bloodmoon with Morrowind, but it's looking unlikely
Ok.... Bloodmoon and Morrowind works, but I have no idea why.... Thanks though! - Game LordTalk|Contribs 15:22, 14 May 2008 (EDT)


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