User talk:Krusty/Arc 2010a

Archive 2010 pt1

This is an archive of previous comments on my talk page. Please do not post a message here - use this link to go to the active page instead. Thanks.

Back to business?

Do I see Krusty's PS3 working full-speed in the background and the man himself doing in-game NPC work? ;) --SerCenKing ^Talk 12:39, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Haha, unfortunately not. The Halion schedule was based on some old notes I found - my PS3 is still at the shop. I'm told that, with a little luck, I should have it back sometime next week. And I can't wait. :) --Krusty 13:11, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

And neither can I! I'm longing to write some schedules instead of transcribing conversations! --SerCenKing ^Talk 13:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Yay! :) --SerCenKing ^Talk 17:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I was offered a new PS3 in exchange for my broken one (apparently, Sony wouldn’t have anything to do with it because of the three beeps) so now I’m slowly leveling up and preparing to continue work on the ONPCRP. The downside is that they couldn’t even manage to pull my disc out of the old machine so right now I’m stuck with the vanilla version of Oblivion (which means, no Shivering Isles). I’ve been offered the GOTY-disc as soon as the store gets it back in stock, so it might take a few more days (or maybe even a week) before I can join in on the SI fun again. Still, at least I’m able to work on the wiki again. --Krusty 18:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Great! I shall anxiously wait til then! :) --SerCenKing ^Talk 18:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Dark Brotherhood

Hey Krusty! As you can see in my sandbox, I've started extracting info for the members of the Sanctuary but there's something that I need to ask. Do you think is worth to add the recommendations that each member (except M'raaj-Dar) give you for each contract? Apparently Teinaava is the one that gives the most useful advices so it may be worth to just list them instead, but I would appreciate a second opinion, same goes for Ocheeva and Vicente, who are the ones that give you the contracts, is it worth to post their dialogue for each contract? --^MC• S'drassa ^•T2M 16:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Haha, that is a very good question. I’ve been thinking about how we should handle the Sanctuary members myself and for now, I will just say ‘go for it’. There is no harm in adding it to the page (we can always remove some of it later) and it is kindda nice to have it all written down for later uses. In time, and in case we decide that some of it is too quest-relevant, maybe some of the dialogue can be removed to the quest-pages and so forth. Or – you can just keep adding the dialogue to your sandbox and then make an official thread at the ONPCRP talk page when you’re done – that way, we can discuss what to do with it. --Krusty 17:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Hope you won't mind me barging in here! xD I agree with Krusty, the comments every member gives to you at each quest can go on their page. Also, they should probably go under a header like what Eshe did on some SI npcs (like this guy). Good luck! --SerCenKing ^Talk 18:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, here's what I've accomplished so far. As you can see I had to split it up into another sandbox due to Vicente's recent dialogue addition. So now I need some feedback, should I continue like that for Vicente or what do you think it should be done? Also, if I continue with Vicente as it is now, something similar will result with Ocheeva, so in other words: Help! --S'drassa ^•T2M 19:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, it looks fine to me – and great work! When you say you had to “split it up”, what do you mean? You are still planning on making separate pages for each NPC once you’re finished, right? Other than that, I think you should just keep going, even though it seems to get “big”. What is good about the Sanctuary residents is that they don’t live forever and their ramblings tend to be pretty entertaining. I for one have never even seen half of all that dialogue and I think it’s nice to see it on the page. And as I mentioned earlier, we can always move some of it to the quest pages if it turns out to be “too much”.

What might be worthy of a soon-to-be discussion is the way we treat the related quests/quests given headings. For now, I think there are way too many headings at the bottom of Vincente’s page and would generally prefer it to just be called “related quests” – without the “genre”-headings beneath. But that is another discussion that I will start in the near future. --Krusty 20:28, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the comment, I've never made such a big page for a single NPC. Oh, and I meant "I had to split it up" because once I had added Vicente's dialogue, when I hit show preview I got the message "This page is 32 kilobytes long..." So I had to create a new sandbox so it didn't get too laggy, but of course I will keep it going, after all I like to see a page finished :) --S'drassa ^•T2M 20:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

/indent: I must say S'drassa... I'm impressed! Both sandboxes look absolutely brilliant and mostly error-free. I see what you mean for Vincente: at first I was a bit scared by the length of the dialogue section but at a second glance, I think it's fine. My only suggestion would be to indent the various bits (by using ':' as I'm sure you know xD) so that it looks neater. I had a bit of a hard time separting actual dialogue and explanations, but for the rest, keep up the great work! --SerCenKing ^Talk 19:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, impressive on display there! Anyhow, a thought: If you want to shorten Vincente's dialogue a bit, then it's possible to remove his dialogue bits when you decline the missions. I usually do that to shorten the pages, because most often it doesn't really say anything about the NPC and the quest that is not being said if you "accept". Just a suggestion, though. --Krusty 20:04, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Krusty and SerC now I know how to make the articles look much cleaner, just something else. Now that I started with Ocheeva I found a problem, when she explains the contract for The Lonely Wanderer quest, she actually gives three options to say about Adamus Phllida, something like "I don't know him", another like "Phillida! That treacherous lapdog!" and another one to "Say nothing". So my question is what should I do for this, since ceratinly it would get even bigger than Vicente's page if I post what she responds for each. --S'drassa ^•T2M 20:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest that you write her three responses down. Very often it's only the first line that differs - and then the rest of the dialogue will be the same no matter what you answer. If that is the case, try to figure out if her question and the three possible answers is worth including to tell the "story" - and if not, throw them away. --Krusty 20:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, if you look at the sandboxes one more time you will see that I'm done, or almost done. The only thing that I still need is to check if they use any spell during combat (probably only M'raaj-Dar) and probably I will need to ask someone with access to the CS to check how exactly their chests are set to spawn the loot. Other than that, I think that they are ready, so thoughts? --S'drassa ^•T2M 05:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you ask him nicely, I’m sure SerCenKing wouldn’t mind adding the spells info (and the chest info) from the CS – that will probably be easier than doing spells in-game. Nevertheless, the pages look great! If I were you, I would try out the following simple things:

• Follow the example from the Methredhel-page and make a section for quest-specific events. Also, place the related quests above that section – that way, the page will appear less “long”. This only applies to Lucien and Ocheeva. Their “advices” about quests they are not giving themselves should be kept above the related quest section.
• I’m not too crazy about the “During”-word again and again. Why not just link to the quest? Maybe again let Lethredhel inspire you on Lucien and Ocheeva's pages? For consistency?
• You should check Scar-Tail’s own page when it comes to quoting lines from A Renegade Shadowscale – just to avoid redundancy.

Give the above suggestions a shot – the pages are brilliant, but we better keep our layout the same, just for the sake of consistency. Great work! --Krusty 16:39, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, now I've moved them to the correct page, for Vicente and Ocheeva I'm not sure if they are like Methredhel's page, but in any case I would like to hear if there's something more that I need to tweak :) --S'drassa ^•T2M 18:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, no need to copy the Methredhel page - but now they appear a bit more "identical" which is nice. I made a few small tweaks instead to Vincente's page - instead of posting them here. I think it is important to link to the Quest-Related-Events section at least somewhere in the main text - and the quests just look better without those headings. --Krusty 19:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for all the guidance, I'm glad I've finally finished them all. I guess all that's left is to ask SerC for the info from the CS. Anyway thanks again! --S'drassa ^•T2M 19:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Help, please!

Hey, Krusty, it's me again. This time I just wanted to ask for some help about the "services" section for the OBNPCRP. As you can see, I've done the pages for Hil the Tall and Marz, both are trainers. But my confusion is, what exactly fits in the "availabilty"? Because from my observations in game, both of them still offer training even while they are sleeping, but I was wondering if the services only fit under the "availabilty" concept if you don't need to trespass to be able to get their services. Same goes for Tun-Zeeus, because in the summary it says that he only offers services from 8am to 8pm, while from my observations in-game, he would offer services from 6am to 10pm, or in other words, he would offer services as long as he is not sleeping but he would accept to barter even while I was trespassing. --S'drassa ^•T2M 20:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Hey there! When writing service info in the NPC summary (or at the end of a schedule), it's not about the NPCs availability ( if you have to break in to approach him/her ect ect), it's whether or not the NPC offers it - meaning, you can access it via the dialogue menu. Many NPC's (like Hil) will have times when they are not scheduled to offer any services - typically when eating or sleeping - and even though it means trespassing an area, the NPC will still offer services - so these are the times that should be mentioned on the pages.

When you are writing NPC pages, you should do the following: Check the original NPC summary - for Marz, it was 10am-12pm, 4pm-8pm every day - and, while you are spying on the NPC, make the occasional check every time the NPC changes behavior. I just visited Marz during the night and she does not offer services while sleeping (meaning, the service info is wrong as it is now). So - if you have done any trainers, take another look at them (just use the wait feature to fast forward to their next "change" in behavior) and approach them. Kindda complicated, but I hope it makes sense - otherwise, let me know and I'll double-check them for you. --Krusty 21:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and btw - check out THIS SECTION for more useful information about merchants and trainers - I bet that would solve your problem with Tun-Zeeus. :) --Krusty 21:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Nope, I just checked Marz again and she would offer me training even while she was already asleep. The only times she didn't offer to train was from 8pm to 10pm (when she's supposed to pray in front of the Altar of the Nine) and from 4pm to 5pm (when she's supposed to activate the altar of Mara), all the other times she would offer to train me. I don't know if tis is a side effect of the drain skill exploit, since I used Marz to train my Rest. skill to 140. Still, that doesn't explain the fact that Hil also offers to train me while he sleeps, specially since I have never used his services.

Oh, about Tun-Zeeus that's not the problem I found, because he didn't become a follower (like our conversation in Orag gra-Bargol's page). He actually follows his normal schedule: sleeps upstairs from 10pm to 4am. He then wanders around until he opens the shop at 8pm and closes at 8pm, but for some reason he would barter with me from 4am until 10pm. Also, while I was investigating the Brolus, I found out something weird with Fjotreid: while he was going out from the Jerall View Inn I talked to him to see if he could give me a useful rumor, but I noticed that he would offer repair services at that time too. I don't know if I did something to alter the merchants AI, but I could use a second check since this is certainly something strange. --S'drassa ^•T2M 22:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, this is odd. Just checked Hil and Tun-Zeeus and your statements are clearly wrong in my game. Tun-Zeeus acted like a typical merchant (no services outside the normal opening time) and Hil definitely doesn't offer services at night. Seems like your game is bugged somehow - although I've never heard about such a glitch on the X-box. I'll go through the relevant schedules tomorrow (it's getting late here) and check the service info. In the meantime, maybe you (if you haven't done it already) should make a "fresh" file (starting a new game) and double-check if it is your system or just the savefiles? --Krusty 22:37, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

It's no use, I just tried it by creating a new character and same thing happened. I even tried to get Marz to detect me because I though that the problem would be that I had 100% Chameleon, but nothing changed. My only guess is that it may be caused by some of the many plug-ins that I have, which is to say all but Mehrunes Razor. I've tweaked Marz's and Hil's articles to explain that they stop offering training once they start eating. If there's something else wrong with the schedule or services please let me know, oh and you may want to check Jantus Brolus too (of course if you want to), to see if at least I got her services schedule right. --S'drassa ^•T2M 01:23, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's too bad. I have looked around and can't find anything similar at all - sounds like a serious bug, but how to find the cause? Nevertheless, I'll take a look at the three(?) pages - and no worries, I've done it before - just to see if there is anything wrong with the service info. --Krusty 08:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Krusty just asked me about this on IRC so I took a peek in the CS. Sorry, Krusty, but I'm going to have to agree with S'drassa :)

Tun-Zeeus should offer services at all times except when asleep (10pm-4am).

Marz and Hil should both offer services when asleep. In fact, Hil should offer services all the time except during noon-2pm IF it's not raining. Marz is trickier as there are other packages that could conceivably kick in if you talk to he right after waking her up.

I'm going to check in-game to see what results I get there. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay... we have a problem.

I just reloaded the CS with no plugins installed (I usually load it with all of 'em). In this case, neither Marz nor Hil offer services when asleep and Tun-Zeeus only offers services from 8am to 8pm.

I just used the F-word on IRC to describe this development.

We'll have to discuss the best way to handle this on the project page. God only knows how many schedules we'll have to rewrite. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Would do you suggest I work on?

Hi Krusty, I'm one of the users working on the NPC Redesign Project and was wondering what things I can work on. I play the game on Xbox 360, and I don't have access to the Construction Set. --Bryanmichael11 01:15, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

House contents is good (I am also playing without access to the CS and it there is no differences between systems)--^Corevette₇₈₉ 01:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey there! Corevette already made a suggestion, but in theory (and with the exception of Factions, Rumors and Spells which can only be written from the CS) you can more or less work on all the categories. The easiest one is Inventory. Simply kill the NPC and write down what clothes he/she wears, write about the persons weapon and armor if they have any (remember to check the weapon/armor at different levels - to check if the equipment is leveled) and write about anything else in their inventory, such as food, torches ect ect - and you're done. Lots of written examples can be found here. Good luck! --Krusty 08:09, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay thanks! I'll try to work on the inventories for nonessential NPCs. --Bryanmichael11 21:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Complete undo

Seeing as we are the only 2 on it seems Can you tell me how to restore pages?--^Corevette₇₈₉ 23:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

A little late now, but it was heated for a moment. You just click the "history" button and compare the versions from "before" the vandal and "after" the vandal. Then you hit undo as usual. Thanks for your help! --Krusty 23:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Check out Help:Page History for more information on how to do it. –Elliot ^talk 23:37, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, What seems to be wring with the IRC Java Client? The publisher used to be Java now it is phiileppe something and my computer cant "recognize the signal".--^Corevette₇₈₉ 23:41, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I have no idea. The IRC and java client works fine for me. --Krusty 07:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Jearl and Saveri

In case you don't notice it in the Recent Changes, you may want to have a look at my reply at Oblivion_talk:Spies#Jearl_and_Saveri...you know, the one I said I'd get back to you about "tomorrow" about 6 months ago. :) ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 07:00, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Just wondering...

if you know this jerk? Because he's been hitting me up too.... >: ( Also removed the tags from this page for you.  :) Justeazy 05:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, nevermind, just saw you removed the other half of the spam (and you probably saw I got the top half). Keep up the good work.Justeazy 05:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Haha - why would I know him? He is a vandal and it took me forever to patrol all his edits. --Krusty 05:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Naah, that was just the first spammer I've ever seen on this site, and I didn't know how to react. I think I got around to figuring it out quickly enough though.... lol. Sorry for the confusion.

No problem! And thanks for the effort! --Krusty 06:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Few points

Hey Krusty. Rather than answer on three different pages, I'll try to condense everything here ;) As you may have noticed, I've finished both Hagaer and Dul's pages and I'll peep in-game to take shots for 'em. In response to your response on the Dovyn Aren sandbox: ahh that makes sense! (the bit when you explain about the Fathis Ules schedule on Dovyn's page :P) I think we might as well do Fathis now that we're at it, the schedule/services/intro is already written up in my sandbox and I'll leave it there for you to check. My main concern are the various bugs and the schedule during Sins of the Father. About the Amusei sandbox; it's weird! The UOP doesn't actually change the conditions (if I'm not blind xD) which are as follows: Lost Histories has to be less than stage 10 AND you have to be on Misdirection OR You have to be doing Lost Histories. We'll probably have to get rpeh or someone a bit more CS-skilled to figure this out. All in all, great work so far! --SerCenKing ^Talk 09:36, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, you are right - let us keep it here so we don't clock up the RC. I am more than ready to do Fathis Ules if you are. Complicated NPCs are fun and Fathis needs some decent treatment anyway. Can you - somehow - make me a list if you need any of his actions checked in-game? And another weird factor - I have now followed DOvyn Aren for three in-game days - and every time he seeks out Fathis, he will position himself outside Dul gro-Shug's house - because Fathis can't get out! Dul will not unlock the door at that time, so the only way to get Fathis back on track is unlocking the door yourself. I will give Fathis a good look tonight - if he is really locked in, we really need some bug explanations! Anyway, thanks for the help - both on the Dovyn and Amusei pages (and you're right - we might have to call in reinforcements to solve Amusei 100%) - and it's always nice to work together on these complicated and bugged NPCs. Anyway, make me a list and I'll check everything tonight! --Krusty 09:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Great! The main problems are as follows:

• His sleeping times. He should sleep from 5am to 11am, however the door is locked. At 6am Dul wakes up and starts to wander on the ground floor, unlocking the door and thus enabling Fathis to go to sleep. Once he wakes up, Dul is still wandering so he should be able to exit.
• His behaviour during Sins of the Father.
  • Like I said in the bugs section, he has two separate eat packages which go from 9am to 9pm and then from 9pm to midnight. I suppose he steals food and recall seeing him eat it on the first floor. So, does he eat all day long?
  • Again, as detailed in the bugs section he is supposed to sleep between midnight and 9am but there aren't any beds available. Does he stand still or does he keep on doing what he was doing earlier (eating)

In relation to Dovyn, I don't understand why that causes a problem. He is set to wander around Fathis between 7pm and 5am, at which times Fathis can be found either on his chest, in the temple or in Dareloth's house - but not in Dul's house. At what time did you observe Dovyn trying to follow him into Dul's house? --SerCenKing ^Talk 16:05, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I have just tried to arrive outside Dul's house after 7pm with three different characters - at different levels (even lvl1) - and each and every time I arrive, Dovyn will stand waiting outside Dul's house. Sadly, because Fathis is in there and there is no one to unlock the door so he can get out. What bothers me a bit is the fact, that no one have ever seen or written about this phenomenon (well, except for this small post). And that Fathis is supposed to leave the house at 11am, a time where the door will be unlocked, according to Dul's schedule. It is really weird. Now I'll try to follow Fathis for a bit and we will deal with this (seemingly very important) bug later - hopefully, we can get some other players to give it a check in-game. --Krusty 16:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I guess it is a problem when the cells are loading. Exactly why Fathis is in Dul's house in the evening remains a mystery... Also, if you go into Dul's house when it is finally unlocked at 6am, Fathis will stand on top of the stairs - because he doesn't have the key to the bedroom either. --Krusty 16:36, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I just followed him around on Middas and Turdas - and everything seems to be fine, schedule-wise - as long as Dul gro-Shug's bedroom door is unlocked by the player. BUT:

• Him sleeping at Dul gro-Shug's house must be a bug to begin with. Maybe RobinHood70 should take a look at the cells or something?
• The above mentioned problem comes and goes - sometimes he is locked inside Dul's house, sometimes not. I guess it depends on wait-feature and fast-traveling. But I really do think that it is worth investigating, because if he spends half the game being locked in we should mention it. (I guess it is what that last bug-note on his current page is referring to)
• I'm not sure if it is important, but he will keep visiting the Temple on Sundas, even after the TG quest line is completed.
• I can vouch for the first bug note on his page as well. He will NOT offer bartering services while moving from one place to another - which is weird. I'll investigate that some more and check out all his "travels".
• He will wait outside Dul's door until 6am. Of course, he is one of the NPCs that will "not move" when you are watching, so you will have to exit and reenter the cell before he will enter.

Here are his basic lines of dialogue, just to get them online:

• Fathis Ules. I've got a nice house. I have a little income... quite comfortable. Time is light on my hands. (before the guild)
• It is a beautiful city. I love to walk, talk with everyone, hear the news, share the little stories of the day. (Imperial City topic)
• Ah, yes. A guild brother in search of a fence? (when you have joined the Guild)

He will, however reject you his bartering services at different stages - with lines like:

• My services are not for such as you. Go peddle your paltry wares to Ongar in Bruma, or one of the other lesser fences. (If your rank is not high enough)
• I don't know what you are talking about. I don't buy or sell things (If you are not a member of the Guild)

I'm not sure if there are any additional "rejections" but rpeh can help with that. And maybe it is worth checking out what "Fathis Fix" does?

That's all for now. --Krusty 18:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I have now completed Legacy Lost and Fathis is in Chorrol, at the inn. This first observation is before Sins of the Father is initiated: He eats between 8pm and 11pm and at all other times he just wanders around (no sleeping or freezing at this point), so the schedule seems to be correct.

The second observation could use a relevant rumor heard amongst the citizens of Chorrol: ”One of the Gray Fox's top bosses, they say. Spends all day drinking at the Oak and Crosier, but he's been asking questions about the Jemanes.” After the quest is initiated, Fathis will drink like a fish from 9am to 9pm. At that time, he will get out of his chair, pick up some food and sit down again, eating until midnight. He then wanders around the inn all night long, no freezing or anything, just regular wandering. I tried to unlock both bedroom doors, but that didn’t do anything to his behavior. Problem solved! --Krusty 20:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Krusty, do you need someone to do checking on his behavior with nothing that affects him done so you don't have to keep starting new people ? I have a save just before leaving the sewers that I can use if you do.--TheAlbinoOrc 22:06, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, but there are really no need to be able to make new characters in this case. What you could do is experiment with the above mentioned "weirdness" - Fathis being locked inside Dul gro-Shug's house at 7pm in the evening. For that, you need a character that have never entered/unlocked Dul's house before. A second opinion would be great because so far, I am the only one who have seen this and I'm a bit spooked if my game is bugged. And as far as I can tell,this bug can happen at all levels with all characters. What I would like to know is the determining factor, why it happens, what can be done to avoid it - stuff like that. So: load one of your saves and fast-travel to the Elven Gardens in the Imperial City and try to "land" somewhere after 7pm. Check if Fathis sits on his chest - or if Dovyn Aren stands outside Dul gro-Shug's house. If he does, then Fathis can't get out and you have found the bug. I will do some additional experiments tomorrow as well. Unless some of our cool CS-people can find something while I am asleep. Good luck - I'll look forward to your observations. --Krusty 22:23, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do this later tonight then.--TheAlbinoOrc 23:10, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

While I haven't had a chance to observe him (I got confused and thought Fathis was in Chorrol and Dovyn was in Imperial City not both) could he be getting stuck on something for long enough that he doesn't make it out, because since it's not a guaranteed occurrence that explains why you've seen him get locked in but no-one else has ?--TheAlbinoOrc 20:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure. I have this wild theory that you have to be in the Elven Gardens cell when the door is unlocked before Fathis can get out. I'll do some testing tomorrow. --Krusty 21:37, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

And now that I've figured out where they both are I'll do testing tonight.--TheAlbinoOrc 21:46, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I've seen cases where someone in the same cell can't get out of a locked room, but if you leave the vicinity, they'll magically appear (presumably because the game ignores minor pathing issues in non-local cells, but that's just an educated guess). I haven't read this whole thing yet, just the last couple of contributions, so I don't know if that's what's going on here or not. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 21:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Area transitions provoke EVPs. EVPs will teleport Actors to the area they "should" be in to help present the illusion that the world is "living" and goes about its business even when you're not there to see it. --Aliana 22:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It is just a bit weird. As you know, I have just followed Dovyn Aren around for several in-game days. He eats at the Tiber Septim Hotel at the same time as Fathis, but I never met Fathis in there while I was following Dovyn. And at 7pm, Dovyn went to Dul gro-Shug's house - always - and Fathis would be locked in. --Krusty 22:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

@Aliana: Thanks for the confirmation. That's what I suspected, but I've only done "fix it" modding, nothing intense enough for me to be sure of the intricacies like this. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 22:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've done the basic checking and posted the schedule as it appears in the CS to my sandbox. I've also added Fathis Fixes in a second section, and will add a UOP section shortly. I haven't tried to analyze flaws in the original schedule beyond a few quick notes as I was writing it. The fixes that Fathis Fixes and UOP add will probably point out most of them anyway.

Sleeping at Dul's house is definitely a bug. Behaviour is, as you suspected, likely to rely on whether you're in the vicinity and possibly on the use of Fast Travel, which seems to reset a lot of things.

If anybody is playing on the PC and has a convenient saved game with the Thieves Guild quests done, I'd be curious to see Fathis' behaviour at (or getting to?) Dareloth's House with and without Fathis Fixes installed. If not, I can dig one up from somewhere. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 00:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't, but I will in a few more days if you don't have one by then (I'm at Blind Eye right now, and planning on one TG quest per level). I'd be willing to bet that there simply IS no "behaviour at (or getting to?) Dareloth's House" once you uninstall the fix (either UOP or FF). Even if it's 9pm and he's right outside the office where he should be, as soon as he has an EVP (by either you entering the guildhouse or 5am arriving), he'll pick up and immediately head for Chorrol, never to return (assuming you've finished Legacy Lost, obviously). I don't see any other possible action he could ever take. --Aliana 04:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm being ridiculously obtuse but what exactly is an EVP I mean I know the effects but what does EVP stand for ?--TheAlbinoOrc 18:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Albino: EVP = Evaluate Package; when an NPC decides which package s/he's gonna choose, standard ways of forcing one is exiting/entering a cell or engaging conversation. RH, the schedule on your sandbox looks good - I don't think you noticed I wrote it in full here :P About the travel package: I suppose he just travels to the location specified and stands still because he's fulfilled his objective. --SerCenKing ^Talk 21:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

← @SerCenKing: I had seen it, actually, but I wanted to write it out exactly as it appeared in the CS so it would be easier to reference from a technical perspective and I would know exactly what the priority order was without having to go back into the CS.

@Aliana: I was thinking of when the TG is complete but you haven't done Sins of the Father. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 23:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, I've located a save where I was a Master Thief but hadn't done the Sins of the Father quest yet. I just need to disable the UOP and test; I'll report back shortly. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 23:29, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, reporting as ordered. ;) With neither the UOP nor Fathis Fixes installed, Fathis would go to Dareloth's House but not offer services once there. Both UOP and FF fixed this, but FF had Fathis wander, whereas the UOP seems to just have him stop at the door once he's in the cell and then never move again. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 00:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Confirmed. He will NOT offer services when he spends time in Dareloth's House. That definitely deserves a mention. Question is: Why? --Krusty 20:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Just to let everybody know. SerC just announced a much-needed wiki-break due to exams, so we have to finish the page without him. To make things easier, I have moved the contents of his sandbox to my own sandbox HERE. That sandbox will be used from now on - and to ease things for us, I have collected all our notes and discoveries in the bugs section of the page. As you may notice, there are still-a lot of unanswered questions (I have added bold and annoying WHY?'s to the seven bugs - but these are the questions that needs to be investigated, and answered. --Krusty 22:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I just scanned the Bugs section and I can answer one or two of the Whys (and will after I eat), but I think some of them may just be due to game design, which I can't really confirm definitively. Aliana seems a little more familiar with that sort of thing, so hopefully (s)he(?) will be able to help as well. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 22:52, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Hey again, RH! If you can answer any of the questions, feel free to edit the Sandbox, so we can get some of the why's removed... :) --Krusty 00:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have some further answers to the latest batch of revisions to the bugs, but most of them are really non-answers.

• For some reason, Fathis doesn't offer services in Dareloth's House because he's leashed to the upstairs door (with a range that easily covers the entire house). When you just change him to wander in the cell or travel to the cell, he offers services. I don't know why this change makes a difference.
• If you've never even started Legacy Lost, Fathis will not get stuck in the Oak and Crosier, so he would follow his normal non-Thieves Guild schedule.
• I'm not sure why Sins of the Father wouldn't start if Fathis is stuck in the Oak and Crosier. The AI for finding the player should override what makes him get stuck in the O&C. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 04:11, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Shady Sam

Since you're on the PS3, would you mind checking this real quick? Thanks. --Aliana 01:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Not really quick because of the time difference, but still checked - even if I was 99% sure that the statement is untrue. No, Shady Sam will not sell you his sword, ever. Tested with lvl7, lvl9 and lvl16 characters. --Krusty 09:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I meant "quick to check", not "soon". :) Thanks - I'd have had to start a completely new game and slog through the whole tutorial to check it here. --Aliana 04:58, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

What about with Mercantile up to 50? Doesn't that allow people to sell stuff they normally wouldn't? 108.1.209.56 06:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh for heavens sake. How on earth did I not think of that?! Thanks - I bet that's it. The reason I was VISITING Sam in the first place is because I have 75 Mercantile and was verifying the 100% Completion stats for UOP games. How about your chars Krusty? --Aliana 07:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, because of my recent PS3 crash, where I lost all my saves, I do not have any characters with 50 Mercantile. Hopefully, another user will be able to check if this is true or not. --Krusty 07:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll check this.--TheAlbinoOrc 21:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Confirmed. With a 50 Mercantile he will sell you his sword.--TheAlbinoOrc 22:13, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Brilliant! Mystery solved! Thanks for the testing. --Krusty 22:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Your welcome !!!--TheAlbinoOrc 23:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Ulfgar's and other NPC's

Hey, just saying thanks for tweaking the NPC's house inventorys, but im confused to why on Ulrika Ulfgar and similarly her brother Beirir, did you change the tag of house contents so they were written by you? I appreciate that your working on Bleakers Way but still i feel it a bit unfair that i put the effort in and your taking credit. Please could you change the tags accordingly? Emoboy64 14:51, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, after I made the house page, I just changed the tag accordingly. After all, it now only states that she/he lives in a house with a separate page and there is nothing to take credit for. Still, if you feel it is urgent then feel free to change the tag once again and add your own name. --Krusty 15:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The tags have nothing to do with "taking credit". They're used simply so that, if there's an error, we know who to go to. They're also used so that we can make sure that two different people do the writing and the checking. Also, the info that you added was all removed, and added to the appropriate page, The Ulfgar Family's House, so there's not really any info on that page that you wrote anymore. Being concerned about "taking credit" is not what this wiki is about; we all appreciate the work you're doing, but you must understand that it's thankless. You have to derive your satisfaction from the fact that you've added some good info to the wiki, whether people know it was you or not. --GK^talk2me 15:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect Guild Knight you maybe right that the tags have nothing to do with 'credit' but still i feel that someone may come along on the page and see that 'so and so did that so they must care'. I'm sorry if I have offended you Krusty and perhaps I shouldn't have been so hasty and jumped to conclusions that your where 'taking credit'. The pages shall remain as they are because like GK and you said the content is no longer on the page and now in a different place. Sorry - Emoboy64 15:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, there is nothing to be sorry about. I made the decision about making the separate page (and it is still your text on the new page), but thought it would be unfair to change the tag using your name. These things happen every once in a while on a Wiki and I have seen it happen to myself on more than one occasion. Still, your house descriptions are very good so keep up the good work! --Krusty 15:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Fathis

As requested, I've added his inventory and I'm proposing a few explanations to the bugs:

• The 5am-11am sleep bug: I don't know if it's "supposed" to happen. His sleeping package has the service flag checked. However, since he is actually locked outside, he defaults and is simply stuck there without offering services.
• The Dareloth services bug: while his wander package has got the services flag checked, his reference is to the door; and even though he has a wide radius, he doesn't offer services. The UOP fixes this by making the whole cell his wandering space.
• The second Chorrol bug: looks like this whole bug is wrong. By that I mean that he doesn't return to IC whether or not he's your fence because there are no scripts/AI packages that make him. None check if he is (or not) your fence. The second part also seems to be untrue: I can't find anything in the scripts for the two quests that check your advancement in the TG questline.

If there are any other you need, feel free to ask. While I'll be a bit caught up with revision this coming week, I'll try to pop in. --SerCenKing ^Talk 19:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: I just e/ced you and RH - looks like you got some of bugs already.. Oh well :) --SerCenKing ^Talk 19:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I came across something today that explains at least the first two bullets, which is that services will not be offered for a package until the person is at the destination. That makes the first one patently obvious as to why he doesn't offer services. For the second one, I think it's a matter of perception: to us, he would reach the door and we'd think that was okay...I think the game wants him to "be one with the door", so to speak, so he's never considered to have reached it. That's a guess, but it makes sense. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 20:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the work and research, SerC (and you too, RH). I more or less believe that the bugs section is complete by now, but if any of the bullets deserves better explanations, please feel free to add it to the sandbox. As an in-gamer, I'm not entirely sure what all that means, so it would be much easier if one of you guys could just go through it one last time and make sure everything is described as precise as we possibly can. The service times are so messy that I think we should just rely on the in-game observations I've added to the NPC summary box - and not attemt to explain them too much in the bugs-section. We are very close now! --Krusty 20:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

RH - I had a vague idea it must have been something like that, it is sure does seem to fit with in-game observations. In regards to the door reference, I suppose the game wishes to use the door just as it uses an "x-marker" as a reference, but obviously Fathis can't be in or on top of it. :P --SerCenKing ^Talk 20:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Daenlin

I was just checking Daenlin's schedule. There seems to be a problem with his hunting trip. Did you actually see him hunting deer, because the schedule seems to be broken and when I nipped into the game to check, he just stood around outside Bravil doing nothing. rpeh •T•C•E• 11:07, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I honestly can't remember if I tested the deer thing on Daenlin - or if I only tested Jean-Pierre Lemonds and then assumed that Daenlin would do the same. Jean-Pierre will stand still as well, unless some deer comes by (which never happens, but I managed to lure some deer down to him) - he will then start to hunt them. If you can see anything broken in Daenlin schedule, then he might ignore the deer. But, like I said, I really can't remember if I tested it. I might have skipped the testing because Daenlin only stays outside for two in-game hours- and then probably used the hunting bit from the original text for the sunday schedule - and maybe I even imagined the deer thing? What does his packages say? --Krusty 12:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

His package says he searches for 20 INVALID. See what I mean? :) It's also supposed to last from 6am to 8pm, so that's not working either. I even spawned a couple of deer in front of him and he still just stood there doing nothing. Very odd. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I must have dreamt up the whole deer thing. He only spends two hours (starting at 6am) outside Bravil, then heads back and offers his services. The original text and service info was probably based on the package you are mentioning, so a bug note and a slight change in the schedule is probably necessary. Too bad - it sounded a bit better that he goes off "hunting". Ah well. --Krusty 13:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Notable People

How would I start the discussion (where) ? Mike/|\ 20:27, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The main Community Portal probably--TheAlbinoOrc 20:29, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I think just tell people on their talk pages if they are interested --Arny 20:29, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, before the incident, Scorpio already started it on the Community Portal. I'd suggest that you just follow up on his suggestions and add the link to your sandbox - maybe even provide a few ideas and thoughts in your post as well. --Krusty 20:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Signature Length

Is my signature too long now? Also in User:Mikeyboy52/Notable People there are a lot of red links intentional or not?--TheAlbinoOrc^{Got_a_question?} 20:21, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Nope they are errors made by Krusty somehow the Oblivion: changed to User: --Arny 20:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

• Length of TheAlbinoOrc's signature: 217, including leading dashes
• Length of RobinHood70's signature (after being shortened a day or two ago): 236, including leading em-dash

You're still shorter than me, so you're good. :)

Oh and as for the red links, that's just because of the {{Lore:Chorrol}} transclusion. That page uses {{NAMESPACE}} so that if it's in Lore, it links to the related Lore article (e.g., Lore:Great Forest); if it's transcluded to an Oblivion article, it links to the related Oblivion article (e.g., Oblivion:Great Forest). It's not Krusty's fault at all. While there are things that could be done, it's just not worth it for something that's just living in a sandbox temporarily. They'll return to being blue links once the article (or relevant portion of it) is moved back to Oblivion:Chorrol. ‒ Robin Hood↝talk 20:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I actually didn't mean character length I meant visible length but I'm guessing you would have mentioned that 8). I'm glad I fit in the 250 character limit too though. As for the Chorrol redlink thing I was mostly wondering if it was worth fixing so that Wanted Pages didn't have [[User:Chorrol]] [[User:Cyrodiil]] and [[User:TheGreatForest]] (plus any others).--TheAlbinoOrc^{Got_a_question?} 22:37, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

rpeh's been working on that more, so he may have a different opinion, but given that the page should only be there for a couple of weeks at most, I wouldn't worry about it. As for visible length, it's a bit long, but it's not obnoxious. :) ‒ Robin Hood↝talk 22:41, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you check something for me?

The net on your side might be a little loose, could you run a check on that for me? I think we're going to need it soon enough. --Timenn-<talk> 07:50, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Haha, very funny smart guy! - may all of your players grow deaf from vuvuzela-noise and may your keeper make a Robert Green. Net checked, btw! --Krusty 09:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I bet with a colleague that the game will result in 3-1, so one goal of yours will be profitable for me. Oh, and vuvuzela to you, vuvuzela right in your ear! --Timenn-<talk> 10:54, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for undoing the vandalism done to my talk page. If hes switching IPs and makingnew accounts, might need to do an area IP block. MikeTalk 04:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

No problem! --Krusty 07:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

dont worry i have stopped doin that scorpio {Ranger 20:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC))