Lore talk:Leki

Makela

I’m going to be looking to go back to the previous version of the page that me and proventus worked on which featured consolidated info for Leki, and Makela Leki. As it stands these figures share a name in common along with the exact same title “saint of the spirit sword” they are also both female yokudan figures who share a heavy connection with the ansei. Basically, we are assuming a lot more to say these two aren’t connected, than the contrary. Info on both pages alone is scarce and the consolidation is ideal in this instance imo.—Dcking20 (talk) 04:24, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I always thought they were the same person. -MolagBallet (talk) 05:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I don't understand the argument made against this, they both have the same name, same title, etc. I really don't think it's a weird thing to state they're the same. Imperialbattlespire (talk) 07:18, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Leki is not Makela Leki

I'm absolutely baffled that you think its appropriate to change this back when you have provided no new evidence or refuted the previous evidence. I'm sure you're aware that's not how it works on the wiki. Even if wikis were a democracy, the comments of two people who agree with you doesn't erase the evidence I have given to the contrary.

The evidence I have provided still stands true, and I'll post it again as it seems its not being understood or ignored:

• Its true that the image caption for a figure named "Leki" from a book in TES: Reguard reads "Saint of the Spirit Sword" - however the context of the original "four heroes" book is needed to understand why this isn't the Yokudan God Leki.
• The dev who wrote much of the old Redguard lore (known only as Ryder Bloc or Dave) originally wrote "Daggerfall:Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes" during TES: Daggerfall. This text examines 4 major MORTAL Redguard/Yokudan heroes - Hallin, Divad, Makela and Frandar.
• The details of the original four heroes document was extracted from the Daggerfall Preview CD. See here for more details: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/compilation-redguard-history
• Instead of the four heroes stories making it into TES: Daggerfall as one large book, it was broken down in to smaller texts called:

* Notes For Redguard History (Hallin)

* Divad the Singer (Divad)

* From The Memory Stone of Makela Leki (Makela)

* Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes (Frandar)

• Despite being broken down, the texts were still focused on the four mentioned mortal heroes, and NOT any god.
• When TES: Redguard came out, they decided to reuse the Frandar book from TES: Daggerfall, but only used a small excerpt, added 2 images and named it Redguard History. The other 3 books were not added to TES: Redguard.
• An artist at this point also decided to create artwork for this book. Images of Frandar and Makela. We didn't get images of Hallin or Divad. This is where everyone get confused. They see the caption read "Leki" and jump to the conclusion that it must be God Leki. Not knowing the fact that the book is about 4 mortal heroes, and not ANY god. We don't know if it was a design choice to label Makela in this way, or if it was an error. What we do know is that this image is undoubtedly Makela Leki.
• At this point in time, God Leki had just been introduced VERY briefly into the lore in another text (Pocket Guide to the Empire) that was released alongside TES: Redguard. Literally one line: " By far the most popular gods in Hammerfell are Tall Papa, and his children: Hunding, Leki and Ansei".

So now we have established from the Preview CD that the original dev who literally wrote this lore was writing about Makela. His intent is clear, even if the Redguard book confused it a little with the image. We have no problem using MK texts and posts as UOL or to help inform lore articles - here I have presented information from the dev himself. You can't hand wave this.

Next, I'll go over you reasoning. All your evidence amounts to:

• "these figures share a name"
• "exact same title “saint of the spirit sword”
• "female yokudan figures"
• "share a heavy connection with the ansei."

This is a classic example of a False Equivalence fallacy. Further, trying to tie these together to make some sense of it by suggesting Makela is an avatar of God Leki with ZERO verifiable evidence or sources is outrageous speculation and engaging in clear-cut Original Research. This should be enough of an argument to end it, but I'll continue.

First of all, the figures who share a name point doesn't hold water because there isn't even any backing in the wider lore that suggests the mortal avatars of the gods share the same name. If that was a thing in the lore, you would be on your way to having an argument:

• Cyrus is an avatar of HoonDing - different name
• Wulf is an avatar of Talos - different name
• Wulfharth is an avatar of Shor - different name
• etc

Not only that, the mortal's name is Makela Leki, not just Leki. We would not start making connections between Sai Sahan and the god Sai, would we? There is literally more evidence in the lore to suggest Frandar was an avatar of HoonDing (despite it not being explicit) than there is for Makela.

Second, the title “Saint of the Spirit Sword” is exactly that. A title. “Saint of the Spirit Sword” translates to Ansei, thus every Ansei in history is a “Saint of the Spirit Sword”. Frandar, Divad, Hallin and Makela are all “Saint of the Spirit Sword” in title. The only instance of God Leki being called “Saint of the Spirit Sword” is as an alias in Varieties of Faith... - book that was written much later for TES: Morrowind... by an Imparial author with an Imperial slant of foreign faiths.

Thirdly, both Dcking20 and Imperialbattlespire have stated that the because information on both pages is scarce is a good reason to combine the pages. I've heard this argument many times before and I honestly can't fathom how you would think this is actually a justifiable reason. We have many short pages on this wiki... that's not a reason to compbine them...

I offered a compromise and included a note to say "Makela Leki, a Redguard sword-singer, is also sometimes referred to as Leki.". That's sufficient. Changing the article into a theory on avatars based on similarities and misunderstandings in the face of contrary evidence isn't acceptable.

Funnily enough, on a personal level - yes, I think its a possibility that Makela is indeed an avatar of God Leki - or some lesser form of Mantling, but thats a just theory at this point and the evidence isn't strong enough to state that on this article. Unless any other evidence to the contrary is presented, there is no reason to change this back into a consolidated article.--Jimeee (talk) 16:01, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The proper steps were taken in the talk page and a consensus was reached. Also a week was given for discussion. Your evidence doesn’t refute what has been addressed which is the fact these two individuals share a name, a title, and the being of a yokudan female ansei figures in common. A revert on your end is not appropriate at this point and won’t be unless a new consensus is reached that agrees with your interpretation.Dcking20 (talk) 17:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Edit warring will go nowhere, and both of us will break the 3RR rule. The evidence quite clearly refutes it - and you have not even responded to the fact this this False Equivalence and Original Research. --Jimeee (talk) 17:31, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

As much as I agree that they're the same, I don't feel like the three of us agreeing with no opposition (or further conversation on the matter, it was just three posts saying "hmm I think they're the same person" with no further evidence for or against it presented) counts as "consensus". If I were to say something on a more obscure article, and two people agreed with me, I wouldn't posit that there's any consensus because the talk page is a three-person echo chamber with no real feedback. You did technically follow procedure, but the conversation we had a week ago doesn't look like consensus. -MolagBallet (talk) 17:36, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

You're correct Molag. I actually never saw the original topic until today. Not only, that its poor form Dck to completely ignore my lengthy post of reasoning with a vague answer while trying to force this change. It absolutely doesn't work like that with it why I'll continue to revert in this instance. --Jimeee (talk) 17:39, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I believe you have found your hill to die on Jimee, and I’m going to let it be, clearly there is no connection worth noting.Dcking20 (talk) 17:42, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Since the two have many similarities but are not the same entity, I added the top note thingy to link readers to thee other Leki page on both Leki pages.Zebendal (talk) 18:52, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

(←) I think that's the right choice here. Good initiative on that Zeb! Jeancey (talk) 18:53, 16 February 2021 (UTC)